A Deeply Fractured US

[KevinB]

I'm not talking about you, per say, I'm talking about this arraignment of a former president. And the precedence it sets.

Honestly, I don’t see the precedent.
No man is above the law, and I think Presidents, past and future should be held to a higher standard.

And the knock on effects in the future, when this comes around and bites back.

I suspect that both parties are going to find some ‘moderates’ in the upcoming weeks.
Liz Cheney is now ranked #3 and a lot of Never Trump Republicans will flock to her.

 

[KevinB]

About that...

US 2020 election: The economy under Trump in six charts

President Trump claims he has been responsible for the strongest US economy ever. What do the numbers show?

www.bbc.com

Trump revokes Obama rule on reporting drone strike deaths

The US will not have to publish how many civilians are killed in drone strikes outside of war zones.

www.bbc.com

So, the growth (setting aside Covid bc no leader could have changed the economic fallout) was continuing a trend from Obama's tenure, and the Trump administration stopped publishing UAS strikes.

President Obama was the patron St of drone strikes (some more interesting issues)
He just hid a lot of them from the public via the CIA and MIL SMU’s.
The number of Drone strikes went down significantly under Trump.

I’m no President Trump fan these days, but he generally used strikes for larger reasons than just tactical military matters, while under President Obama, there was a lot of usage simply ‘because we could’.

 

[JLB50]

Those are some heavy believes formulated without any evidence. So how were those four years under POTUS 45, you know the four years of great economic growth and no wars?

The economy did grow under Trump but not not “the greatest economy in the history of the world” as he claims, During that same period the Euro Zone did better overall, and in particular, Germany and Italy.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/98BC/production/_115200193_usgdp2-nc.png.webp

As for other aspects of Trump’s character, he admits learning how to lie from one of the best con-men of all…the late Roy Cohn who, decades before, helped Joseph McCarthy instigate his infamous witch-hunt of Communists who had supposedly infiltrated all levels of the U.S. government. The lives of countless people were ruined as a result, and much the same could happen here if the investigation of Chinese influence in Canada is not handled carefully. Trump has admitted learning from Cohn how to win at any cost, especially by telling a big lie and telling it often enough so that people will eventually believe it. His mental state is perhaps not all his fault, having been born to a tyrannical father who insisted on winning and looked down on his first born son who did not succeedmthe way dad wanted him to. But Trump is dangerous.

 

[JLB50]

My wife votes in their elections. I'm just a 2-cent poker chip looking in from the outside wondering who will get the launch codes.

I agree with your opinion of Barry Goldwater. But, do you remember the "Daisy" ad? As an "Eisenhower baby" I do!

As far as former presidents go, President Carter is "on the canvas", so to speak. A WW2 vet. Lost re-elction. Took it like a man. And has lived his life as a good man ever since.

Saw a TV interview of President Nixon the other day. Another WW2 vet. He lost a close, a very, very close election to JFK. He too took it like a man. The interview was ten years after he left office. He was intelligent, and well-informed on just about everything. Very enjoyable interview to watch. He was entitled to lifetime Secret Service protection. But, knew what it was costing the taxpayers. So, voluntarily gave it up.

In a word, these men were "presidential". I wonder if the world shall ever see their likes again?

Goldwater wasn’t the loose cannon he was made out to be. That infamous commercial, I believe, only appeared once before it was taken off the air but the media kept referring to it.

 

[mariomike]

The economy did grow under Trump but not not “the greatest economy in the history of the world” as he claims, During that same period the Euro Zone did better overall, and in particular, Germany and Italy.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/98BC/production/_115200193_usgdp2-nc.png.webp

As for other aspects of Trump’s character, he admits learning how to lie from one of the best con-men of all…the late Roy Cohn who, decades before, helped Joseph McCarthy instigate his infamous witch-hunt of Communists who had supposedly infiltrated all levels of the U.S. government. The lives of countless people were ruined as a result, and much the same could happen here if the investigation of Chinese influence in Canada is not handled carefully. Trump has admitted learning from Cohn how to win at any cost, especially by telling a big lie and telling it often enough so that people will eventually believe it. His mental state is perhaps not all his fault, having been born to a tyrannical father who insisted on winning and looked down on his first born son who did not succeedmthe way dad wanted him to. But Trump is dangerous.

Roy's cousin had this to say,

I’m Roy Cohn’s Cousin. He Would Have Detested Trump’s Russia Fawning.

As dangerous as Cohn was to American institutions, he never wavered in defending the U.S. against the ‘evil empire.’

www.politico.com

He smeared Jews even though he was Jewish. He tarred Democrats even though he was a Democrat. He persecuted gay people even though he was gay.
Yet throughout his life, he held fast to one certainty: Russia and America were enemies. Roy often told me the Kremlin blamed the U.S. for Russia’s failure to prosper, so Russian leaders were bent on destroying our democracy.

Goldwater wasn’t the loose cannon he was made out to be. That infamous commercial, I believe, only appeared once before it was taken off the air but the media kept referring to it.

Did not mean to imply that he was. But, I bet "Daisy" put a fright into some voters!

Daisy (advertisement) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[JLB50]

Henry David Thoreau, the author of On Walden Pond is often thought

Roy's cousin had this to say,

I’m Roy Cohn’s Cousin. He Would Have Detested Trump’s Russia Fawning.

As dangerous as Cohn was to American institutions, he never wavered in defending the U.S. against the ‘evil empire.’

www.politico.com

Did not mean to imply that he was. But, as a small child, that commercial scared the heck out me. Maybe some voters too?

Daisy (advertisement) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Roy's cousin had this to say,

I’m Roy Cohn’s Cousin. He Would Have Detested Trump’s Russia Fawning.

As dangerous as Cohn was to American institutions, he never wavered in defending the U.S. against the ‘evil empire.’

www.politico.com

Did not mean to imply that he was. But, I bet "Daisy" put a fright into some voters!

Daisy (advertisement) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Scared me too when it was created by LBJ’s election team. I remember one of Goldwater’s election signs (“In your heart you know he’s right”) being defaced to read “In your heart you know he’s a fart”. Actually, I was working in Arizona in the mid 1980s and had one of Goldwater’s granddaughters as a workmate. She was a “goldmine” of information about her grandfather and enlightened me about him in a number of ways.

 

[mariomike]

I thought it was,

"In your heart, you know he's right."

"In your guts, you know he's nuts."

Mushroom cloud in the background. ( This was just two years after the Cuban Missle Crisis scare. )

 

[Halifax Tar]

Honestly, I don’t see the precedent.
No man is above the law, and I think Presidents, past and future should be held to a higher standard.

I suspect that both parties are going to find some ‘moderates’ in the upcoming weeks.
Liz Cheney is now ranked #3 and a lot of Never Trump Republicans will flock to her.

I think you're living on a fantasy island if you actually think no man (person) is above law. I mean, it's a great idea, but it's not true and never has been.

It's even that way in the CAF.

RHIP MOFO.

I suspect depending on the outcome of these court proceedings you may suddenly see the curtain pulled aside and the putrid rot, that is American politics, be shown the light of day.

Maybe it's a good thing, maybe it's what the world needs, a violent and messy reset.

 

[JLB50]

Henry David Thoreau, the author of “On Walden Pond”, is famous internationally for his pacifism;indeed he heavily influenced the beliefs of people like Ghandi and Tolstoy with their pacifist ideals. But even Thoreau believed sometimes there are times and situations when pacifism alone will not work.

His essay/letter ”A Plea for Captain John Brown” was written shortly before Brown was to be executed for his actions at Harper’s Ferry and elsewhere. In it he basically says he is not pleading for Brown to be found guilty. Rather he is pleading that his character not be found guilty and that his character will live long after he has been executed. Thoreau’s description of what is was about Brown that made him great is, in my opinio, something I wish every politician would read.

For anyone who hasn’t read it, I recommend “A Plea for Captain John Brown”.

 

[mariomike]

Nikki Haley ( Republican ) may be on to something.

She said,

"Republicans have lost the popular vote in seven out of the last eight presidential elections. That has to change."

The recent Midterm election was hardly the predicted "Red Tsunami".

Born in 1972, perhaps her age, in comparison to others, might be in her favour.

Lindsey says, " I'm so upset",

‘Upset’ Lindsey Graham begs supporters to donate money to Trump

“I’m sorry, I’m so upset, but please help President Trump,” Sen. Graham said. “If you can afford five or 10 bucks, if you can’t afford a dollar, fine. Just pray.”

nypost.com

 

[Brad Sallows]

The problem isn't that Trump is above the law. The problem is that other politicians and civil servants seem to be, depending on political party alignment. False statements under oath. Mishandling classified information.

"Trump is dangerous." Maybe. You know who was really dangerous? George W Bush, Dick Cheney, and the crowd of compassionate conservatives and neo-cons around them. The ones who strenuously argued for a discretionary war to effect regime change in Iraq and plant democratic institutions, with an "underpants gnome" plan for doing so (eg. 1. Overthrow Hussein, 2. ????, 3. Democracy!); who argued that anyone not with them couldn't call himself a conservative. How many hundreds of thousands of lives? How many hundreds of billions of dollars?

The interesting part is that a bunch of the refugees from that arrogant incompetent crew, along with a handful of their younger disciples, are among the most vocal Republican NeverTrumpers who have been demanding for years that everyone who enables Trump ought be reviled and shun, run out of town, disemployed. Obviously widespread death and destruction is a lot worse than mean tweets, disregard for decorum, insulting statements about political opponents, disparaging and threatening lies about election results. So what should happen to them?

 

[mariomike]

The problem is that other politicians and civil servants seem to be, depending on political party alignment.

Pretty hard to top this alignment.

January 6 United States Capitol attack - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Stay tuned for 2025.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm not offering arguments, but I've spent a fair amount of the last 30 hrs watching eminent Constitutional lawyer interviews and politicians about this case. I'll offer what they were saying.

Three federal organizations all looked at this case and gave it a pass. So did Bragg initially. Something or someone changed his mind.
Bragg campaigned on "I'll get Trump" it was almost the main plank of his campaign.
Bragg is backed by George Soros
The charges are copy and paste from the first charge. Most think a half decent judge would say to roll them into one and don't waste the court's time.
Bragg has no authority to try a federal charge or making a misdemeanor into one.
Bragg has stated Trump broke NY election laws. State election laws are trumped by the Federal Elections Act. Pundits seem to think the state election law gambit won't stand up. Don't ask me how.
Bragg cannot or will not discuss the crimes Trump was supposedly breaking. Not even with Trump's legal team.
If he committed crimes, those should be the things charged, not misdemeanors to cover those supposed crimes.
Bragg picked a Dec 4 court date, which is the start of the Primary. Some think this is to keep Trump tied up in court and off the campaign trail.
New York is very anti-Trump, hence the Grand Jury decision. The best they could hope for is a change of venue to Manhattan and a new judge who is not a fervent anti-Trumper.
Most of the case appears to be based on evidence from Cohen. A known liar who committed perjury and who did prison time for those crimes. He is a highly unreliable, unbelievable witness.
There's more legal stuff that I didn't catch the nuance or the whole conversation. Maybe later.
Many politicians that hate Trump, like Romney and Bush and even some Democrats are decrying this as a breakdown of law and declaring it as a political stunt that will have far reaching consequences for the Republic. Even John Bolton is appalled and opposed to the action.
As such, there are now AG from other states who are now looking at Democrat malfeasance that can be used in court.
The double standard of Clinton, Bidens, Comey and other dems vice Trump is becoming more glaring, due in large part to Obama weaponizing the Federal government.
The Democrat ties to China and not just the Bidens.
The legal stance and buzzword is that this is a big 'Nothing Burger' and the other two tropes of " In the United States you can get a Grand Jury to indict a ham sandwich." The third one is a quote is from Stalin's head of the Secret Police, Lavrentiy Beria. "Show me the man and I will show you the crime."
Trump has been under attack by a hostile, weaponized Democrat government since he came down the Golden Escalator to announce his run for POTUS.
Congress has paid out 15 million to settle harassment actions brought against its members. Trump paid Daniel's from his own pocket. Not sure what that has to do with anything though.

Trump’s lawyer has said, in effect, that this won't survive first strike let alone get to court, if they get a fair hearing.

Like I said, I am simply repeating what's been said. I am neither defending nor supporting. Discuss if you wish, but this is the extent of my contribution.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Pretty hard to top this alignment.

January 6 United States Capitol attack - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Stay tuned for 2025.

Not sure how adding to the list of things Trump is being investigated for excuses not investigating other people. Maybe you could clarify?

 

[KevinB]

Not sure how adding to the list of things Trump is being investigated for excuses not investigating other people. Maybe you could clarify?

Agree. While I think Trump needs to pay the piper, a lot of others seem to be getting a pass.

 

[mariomike]

Not sure how adding to the list of things Trump is being investigated for excuses not investigating other people. Maybe you could clarify?

No excuse for not investigating and prosecuting other people. Round them up.

My point, my only point, is it will be pretty hard for those other people to top this,

January 6 United States Capitol attack - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

As someone not eligible to vote in their elections, I'll be watching my television in 2025, in case there is a repeat performance.

 

[QV]

Agree. While I think Trump needs to pay the piper, a lot of others seem to be getting a pass.

That is the far bigger story. All the others getting a pass, who and why. But many will be easily distracted with "we got him now!"

 

[brihard]

That is the far bigger story. All the others getting a pass, who and why. But many will be easily distracted with "we got him now!"

There are more than enough state level district attorneys with heavy Republican leanings who’ve spoken up about wanting to go after democrat officials. They’re free to exercise their prosecutorial discretion and bring things to grand juries if they think they have the evidence and the jurisdiction.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

And while the world was watching the Trump fiasco, this was happening.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1643986599225749505

Actor Leonardo DiCaprio testifies in money laundering and bribery trial

At the heart of the case is Jho Low, a fugitive accused of being the mastermind behind the Malaysian 1MDB scandal

www.theguardian.com

 

[QV]

The Hunter laptop "has all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation."
- signed 50 former senior intelligence officials

Institutions in the US have so damaged their credibility going after Trump for the last seven years that I think it will be almost impossible to dig out of the hole they are in while the country remains irreconcilably divided. There is only one way to reset this and that is a Trump POTUS 47 followed by a house cleaning of epic proportions, then resignation after two or three years into the term and handover to the VP (hopefully Tulsi Gabbard) to finish the term and run for a second. You could even call it the "Great Reset"!