A Deeply Fractured US

[Retired AF Guy]

Well I guess all those who speculated that today would be the day were right, just a little later than usual. More from the Guardian:

Donald Trump charged with illegal retention of classified documents

The twice-impeached former president is being prosecuted for retaining national security documents at his Mar-a-Lago resort

Fri 9 Jun 2023 01.15 BST

Federal prosecutors have charged Donald Trump with violating the Espionage Act and conspiring to obstruct the criminal investigation among other counts, according to a person familiar with the matter, a historic development marking the most significant legal peril yet for the former president.

The exact nature of the seven-count indictment is unclear because it remains under seal.

At least some of the counts filed in federal district court in Miami by the office of special counsel Jack Smith include the willful retention of national defense information, obstruction of justice, conspiracy, false statements and concealment under title 18 of the US criminal code, the person said.

Trump and his legal team were told of the charges on Thursday afternoon. Trump is expected to surrender himself to authorities in Miami on Tuesday at 3pm, the person said, confirming what the former president posted on his Truth Social platform.

For more than a year, prosecutors have examined whether Trump knowingly retained classified documents at his Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida after he left office and took steps to conceal the materials after the justice department issued a subpoena for their return.

Criminal charges against Trump in the Mar-a-Lago documents investigation means the former president is now a defendant in a second case after he was indicted on state charges in New York by the Manhattan district attorney over his role in hush-money payments to an adult film star in 2016.

The indictment by Smith, appointed by the US attorney general, Merrick Garland, to lead the documents investigation, also means the country must grapple with the unprecedented situation of a twice-impeached, twice-charged former president running for re-election.

The news comes after activity in the investigation recently shifted to the Wilkie Ferguson US courthouse in Miami, after prosecutors subpoenaed multiple witnesses to appear before a previously unknown grand jury taking evidence in the case in Florida, the Guardian has reported.

Most of the grand jury activity until May had focused on the grand jury hearing evidence in the case in Washington. But that grand jury went quiet at the start of the month, around the same time that the Florida grand jury was impaneled, a person familiar with the situation said.

The investigation has broadly been focused on three statutes under title 18 of the US code, according to the FBI’s search warrant affidavit for Mar-a-Lago: wilful retention of national defense information, obstruction of justice and the retention of government documents.

The espionage investigation has been focused on whether Trump showed off national security materials in his office at Mar-a-Lago, and has questioned multiple witnesses about whether Trump waved around classified documents he had kept when no longer authorized to after he left office.

Prosecutors have also asked witnesses about documents concerning potential US military action against Iran, after Trump referenced such a document in a meeting at Bedminster in July 2021 where he said he could not show a certain document because he did not declassify it when president.

To that end, prosecutors have showed an Iran document to some witnesses who appeared before the Washington grand jury and asked whether they had ever seen the material by Trump or anyone else. It was not clear whether any witness confirmed seeing the document, one of the people said.

The investigation into the obstruction, meanwhile, has focused on whether the failure by Trump to fully comply with the subpoena last year was a deliberate act of obstruction because he wanted to retain the classified documents even after he had left office, the people said.

Last June, the since-recused Trump lawyer Evan Corcoran found 38 classified documents in the storage room at Mar-a-Lago and told the justice department that no further materials remained there – which came into question when the FBI seized 101 more classified documents months later.

Corcoran later told associates he felt misled because he had asked whether he should search elsewhere at Mar-a-Lago, such as Trump’s office, but was waved off, the Guardian first reported. Corcoran’s notes also showed he told Trump he had to return all classified documents in his possession. [\quote]

Link

 

[brihard]

Well. That’ll be a fascinating indictment to read once it gets unsealed.

It remains a possibility that there are additional charges to be laid in federal court in Washington, DC. Venue is apparently quite important depending on the facts of the offenses.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Further proof of the two tiered justice system.

But destroying 33,000 emails/ unsecure illegal servers/ cellphones that are under subpoena is ok. Or spying on US citizens and the White House. Or falsifying FISA applications. Or taking over 5 years to investigate a laptop. Or blackmailing/bribing countries in return for favourable US policy.

Russia, Russia, Russia.

 

[QV]

Further proof of the two tiered justice system. But destroying 33,000 emails/ unsecure illegal servers/ cellphones that are under subpoena is ok. Or spying on US citizens and the White House. Or falsifying FISA applications. Or taking over 5 years to investigate a laptop. Or blackmailing/bribing countries in return for favourable US policy. Russia, Russia, Russia.

Oh yeah the corruption is undeniable. The relentless pursuit to prevent Trump from becoming POTUS again while ignoring/covering for the other side is something else. Lots of people celebrating this kind of behavior. Acts like this make the other 50% more likely to support a Trump presidency than not as a big FU to the corrupt establishment.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Oh yeah the corruption is undeniable. The relentless pursuit to prevent Trump from becoming POTUS again while ignoring/covering for the other side is something else. Lots of people celebrating this kind of behavior. Acts like this make the other 50% more likely to support a Trump presidency than not as a big FU to the corrupt establishment.

His numbers increase every time they attack him. The bigger the attack, the bigger the war chest gets. He is beholden to no one, except his base. People that can't be bought are an anathema to the Swamp.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Trump's biggest problem is finding a competent defense team. He has to be the worse client and will stick his foot into it and make life hell for his lawyer. If he hired a good team and did what he is told, my guess is the case will fall apart or be withdrawn.

 

[QV]

Trump's biggest problem is finding a competent defense team. He has to be the worse client and will stick his foot into it and make life hell for his lawyer. If he hired a good team and did what he is told, my guess is the case will fall apart or be withdrawn.

There is no doubt he is a difficult client. But there is also an effort to wreck anyone who works for him... life becomes difficult for anyone in the sphere. A lot of people don't want to risk that. Again, anyone celebrating that kind of stuff is somewhere below bottom feeder on morals.

 

[brihard]

Further proof of the two tiered justice system.

But destroying 33,000 emails/ unsecure illegal servers/ cellphones that are under subpoena is ok. Or spying on US citizens and the White House. Or falsifying FISA applications. Or taking over 5 years to investigate a laptop. Or blackmailing/bribing countries in return for favourable US policy.

Russia, Russia, Russia.

Oh yeah the corruption is undeniable. The relentless pursuit to prevent Trump from becoming POTUS again while ignoring/covering for the other side is something else. Lots of people celebrating this kind of behavior. Acts like this make the other 50% more likely to support a Trump presidency than not as a big FU to the corrupt establishment.

I know you two will find this question uncomfortable, maybe deeply so, but what if Donald Trump actually committed some or all of the crimes that the Grand Jury has indicted him for, and is convicted of them by a jury of his peers? What if he actually did the things that are criminal under US law? Are you prepared to address this possibility?

 

[shiska]

Whataboutism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I know you two will find this question uncomfortable, maybe deeply so, but what if Donald a trump actually committed some or all of the crimes that the Grand Jury has indicted him for, and is convicted of them by a jury of his peers? What if he actually did the things that are criminal under US law? Are you prepared to address this possibility!

I'll address your strawman when, and if, it happens.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I'll address your strawman when, and if, it happens.

That's not a strawman, he has been indicted by a Grand Jury, which is made up by a random selection of US citizens, and there is plenty of already public information, including his own lawyer's statements when they pierced the legal veil, and Trumps own admissions on TV that he did hold onto a bunch of classified files, and then did a bunch of obstruction to hide them.

There is enough evidence that his lawyer was compelled to testify against him, so this isn't some kind of baseless accusation.

I think if he had just turned over a bunch of boxes at the start he would never have been charged. This all seems a direct result of doing things like hiding boxes of SA files, getting lawyers to lie on a certified statement, lying to his own lawyers etc etc.

Calling this a strawman really smacks of willful blindness on your part.

 

[brihard]

I'll address your strawman when, and if, it happens.

That’s not what a straw man is. I’m neither distracting nor introducing an unrelated subject. I’m speaking to the very central issue of the thread to which you yourself were replying.

Your reply mentioned, in a quick flurry of ‘whatabouts’:

• FISA court
• Subpoena
• Spying
• Illegal handling of information or data.

This suggests that you actually at least have an honest concern in the rule of law. I do believe that you do, even if you get kinda performative about it at times depending on who’s at bat. So, given that the subject under discussion and to which you replied is Donald Trump charged with various offences, and given that those offences likely include mishandling of defence information, obstruction of Justice, and possibly witness tampering- do you have an honest interest in seeing this case adjudicated on its merits? Or are you likely to stick to the position you admitted to us last year, and assume that, because Trump is the accused, the whole thing is bullshit?

A hypothetical, yes- the wheels of Justice turn slowly. But they turn, and he may be convicted by a jury. Food for your thoughts on this Friday.

Tuesday we likely all get to read the indictment and learn a lot more.

 

[QV]

I know you two will find this question uncomfortable, maybe deeply so, but what if Donald Trump actually committed some or all of the crimes that the Grand Jury has indicted him for, and is convicted of them by a jury of his peers? What if he actually did the things that are criminal under US law? Are you prepared to address this possibility?

If Trump himself actually committed crimes then yes he ought to be held accountable. But what might be uncomfortable for you brihard is to have a look back at the last 7 years and see what 45 has been put through. No other person has endured this level of attacks and much of it was demonstrated to be completely unfounded and abuses of authority by political opponents. And the Trump haters are totally ok with those abuses.

Those aren't "whatabouts", those are demonstrated abuses of power left unchecked for political purposes.

 

[brihard]

If Trump himself actually committed crimes then yes he ought to be held accountable. But what might be uncomfortable for you brihard is to have a look back at the last 7 years and see what 45 has been put through. No other person has endured this level of attacks and much of it was demonstrated to be completely unfounded and abuses of authority by political opponents. And the Trump haters are totally ok with those abuses.

Those aren't "whatabouts", those are demonstrated abuses of power left unchecked for political purposes.

No, prolonged criminal investigations don’t make me uncomfortable at all; been there, done that, and a lot goes into it. Sometimes there’s just a lot that needs to be investigated by various entities of the government.

Trump has been through a lot of stuff, but I’ve not seen him treated unfairly. He chooses his behaviours and as such he chooses the consequences. While he’s not the most articulate at stringing words together, he seems to author his own misfortune quite well, even without a ghostwriter.

I’m gratified to hear that you do want to see accountability if the offences are proven beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury. Credit to you for that. That’s the same thing most of us want.

EDIT TO ADD- just to put the marker down- if he’s ultimately acquitted, I will of course accept that.

 

[QV]

This is all done under the guise of justice but the true purpose is to damage Biden's leading opponent in the run up to the next election. That has been and continues to be the modus operandi of the corrupt establishment.

The MSM can't help themselves either, Rachel Maddow is suggesting the DOJ should drop the charges in exchange for Trump pulling out of the 2024 race.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

That’s not what a straw man is. I’m neither distracting nor introducing an unrelated subject. I’m speaking to the very central issue of the thread to which you yourself were replying.

Your reply mentioned, in a quick flurry of ‘whatabouts’:

• FISA court
• Subpoena
• Spying
• Illegal handling of information or data.

This suggests that you actually at least have an honest concern in the rule of law. I do believe that you do, even if you get kinda performative about it at times depending on who’s at bat. So, given that the subject under discussion and to which you replied is Donald Trump charged with various offences, and given that those offences likely include mishandling of defence information, obstruction of Justice, and possibly witness tampering- do you have an honest interest in seeing this case adjudicated on its merits? Or are you likely to stick to the position you admitted to us last year, and assume that, because Trump is the accused, the whole thing is bullshit?

A hypothetical, yes- the wheels of Justice turn slowly. But they turn, and he may be convicted by a jury. Food for your thoughts on this Friday.

Tuesday we likely all get to read the indictment and learn a lot more.

We know how these things go with you and I. I'm not going to be drawn into it. Have a good one.

 

[brihard]

Significant update this morning: Reportedly Walt Nauta, Trump’s aide at Mar-a-Lago, has also been indicted. His name emerged in recent weeks as having been involved in moving boxes/documents around Mar-a-Lago during the time period of the DOJ attempts to recover classified documents. If there’s a conspiracy charge, this may well be at the core of it.

Source for this is Trump announcing it on social media. Probably one of the other sealed indictments from southern district of Florida yesterday.

Also, two of Trump’s lawyers have resigned, Jim Trusty and John Rowley. They won’t be representing him any longer in this. Another weird legal twist, the judge for the Tuesday appearance is Eileen Cannon, the same (Trump-appointed) federal judge who botched the whole ‘special master’ thing earlier on in this case following the search warrant. I’m not sure how far she’ll carry this case.

At this point I hope the court workers, security, and law enforcement securing the appearance venue don’t take undue shit. Southern district of Florida is core Trump country.

 

[Remius]

Trump lawyers quit in documents case; Trump aide indicted

Two lawyers defending Donald Trump quit the case on Friday, one day after the former U.S. president was indicted on federal charges of illegally retaining classified documents, obstruction and other crimes.

www.reuters.com

 

[Brad Sallows]

The problem is not that Trump has not committed likely criminal acts. The problem is that the "they" who are trying to take him down can't resist choosing only a few important battles to fight, and at the same time "they" are conspicuously incurious when it comes to pursuing other people who have committed likely criminal acts. For example, it is simply a matter of record now that various players in the drama have made demonstrably false statements under circumstances in which making false statements is a crime, and not been prosecuted. And it defies common sense to believe that a single credible accusation of Russian Collusion bribery would not be enough to launch another special prosecution, provided Trump were the target.

 

[QV]

The problem is not that Trump has not committed likely criminal acts. The problem is that the "they" who are trying to take him down can't resist choosing only a few important battles to fight, and at the same time "they" are conspicuously incurious when it comes to pursuing other people who have committed likely criminal acts. For example, it is simply a matter of record now that various players in the drama have made demonstrably false statements under circumstances in which making false statements is a crime, and not been prosecuted. And it defies common sense to believe that a single credible accusation of Russian Collusion bribery would not be enough to launch another special prosecution, provided Trump were the target.

What do you attribute the silent acceptance of this kind of malfeasance by the lay person who would like to see Trump jailed?

If that comes across as a loaded question, I won't be offended if you outright ignore it.