A Deeply Fractured US

[brihard]

So nothing better to do in the middle of the day, harass law enforcement and follow them around.

Observing and recording police is not ‘harassing’ them. It’s the right of a person in a free society oblong as police are not obstructed from doing their jobs. I see no evidence these ones were. She literally tried to wave their vehicle around and there was ample room to do so.

Following police is not illegal.

None of these things, regardless, factor into the legal authority of a police officer to use deadly force.

This doesn't matter.

It matters a very great deal, and claiming it doesn’t just shows how utterly unqualified you are here. Establishing their identity as police and establishing that they were acting lawfully in the course of duties they are permitted to carry out is easential, like, utterly fucking essential in determining if those officers were giving lawful commands and if they were lawfully placed as it pertains to what they did next. They were attempting to detain her and the lawfulness of that detention will be very important. It would be the difference between avoiding criminal responsibility, and a murder cherge.

She chose to be there in the first place, she decided to loaf around ICE agents.

This was irrelevant to the individual officer’s decision to use deadly force, or the legality thereof.

Observing is a personal choice.

Yes. Like voting, or saying “fuck the police”, It’s actually a right. The exercising of that right is also irrelevant to the individual officer’s decision to use deadly force, or the legality thereof.

I don't care about the result, that's irrelevant. She had nothing better to do and ended up in that situation under her own free will.

The dead mother of three who was shot in the face by police is the result. That is not ‘irrelevant’. That is the entire point of this. Police are accountable for articulating the force we use and only doing so lawfully. When someone is killed because of police incompetence, accountability must follow. It will- civilly, at a minimum. Possibly criminally but I suspect the administration will prevent that happening.

She was a loser and had no reason to be there. This was corroborated by the statement from her family. Being shot in the face was irrelevant, that was one out of many outcomes.

Police shooting someone dead is never “irrelevant”, and will in most cases be the single most significant aspect of any situation. If you think otherwise I just don’t know what to say.

You always have to get a personal attack in whenever you disagree with someone. A sign of true intelligence. I'm done with you.

False. I very rarely say anything like, or the admins would have turfed me long ago. When I do so, it’s with good reason. You would be utterly temperamentally unsuitable for policing in our part of the world and I’m glad that’s not an option you pursued. If you choose not to engage with me because this is pointed out, that’s fine, but I will not be ignoring your posts if they need to be challenged . Up to you if you reply or not. Not the first time someone on this site has declared they’re ignoring me, won’t be the last.

 

[Jarnhamar]

There are enough useful idiots out there for the democrats to gaslight into some sort of rebellion against Trump. Their rage is fed by the media who have no problem putting gas on the fire. Where were they when Biden and Obama were using ICE to deport illegals?

Some of these ICE dudes* make me think of failed police cadets who become power tripping Commissioneres, then given assault rifles.

Where were these people when Biden and Obama were using ICE? I'd say Pre-Trump ICE were a lot different than post-Trump ICE. I get what you're saying thought; doubtless they're willing to ignore more when it's their team at bat.

Never the less the behavior by ICE is rapidly getting out of control (and I'm very much for kicking illegal residents out of countries).

The US is going to hit a breaking point and people will start responding to ICE et el with some serious violence. Trump will use that to justify more draconian measures.

*and it's looking like it's not just ice ref the video of posted oj one of these threads or the border agent pulling out his pistol and shoving it on the face of a protestors appearing to just stand there. Like is he going to execute the protestor or what?

 

[OldSolduer]

Some of these ICE dudes* make me think of failed police cadets who become power tripping Commissioneres, then given assault rifles.

Where were these people when Biden and Obama were using ICE? I'd say Pre-Trump ICE were a lot different than post-Trump ICE. I get what you're saying thought; doubtless they're willing to ignore more when it's their team at bat.

Never the less the behavior by ICE is rapidly getting out of control (and I'm very much for kicking illegal residents out of countries).

The US is going to hit a breaking point and people will start responding to ICE et el with some serious violence. Trump will use that to justify more draconian measures.

*and it's looking like it's not just ice ref the video of posted oj one of these threads or the border agent pulling out his pistol and shoving it on the face of a protestors appearing to just stand there. Like is he going to execute the protestor or what?

The USA is heading to civil war - God I hope not - but the fuse has been lit - its a slow one, but that could change with another shooting whether its righteous or not.

 

[Quirky]

Never the less the behavior by ICE is rapidly getting out of control (and I'm very much for kicking illegal residents out of countries).

If you're not an illegal immigrant to the US, you shouldn't have any interactions with ICE.....unless you're a mother of three who's looking for kicks in the middle of a work week.

The US is going to hit a breaking point and people will start responding to ICE et el with some serious violence.

It's going to happen with the left realizes the 2nd amendment applies to them too.

The USA is heading to civil war - God I hope not - but the fuse has been lit

Social media, and media in general, aren't helping.

 

[Remius]

The USA is heading to civil war - God I hope not - but the fuse has been lit - its a slow one, but that could change with another shooting whether its righteous or not.

That country will break apart before it ever annexes us. We’ll need a con plan for the inevitable refugees headed north if that ever happens.

 

[HavokFour]

If you're not an illegal immigrant to the US, you shouldn't have any interactions with ICE.....unless you're a mother of three who's looking for kicks in the middle of a work week.

My dude, American citizens no where near protests have been getting dragged into unmarked vehicles. Open your eyes.

 

[Quirky]

My dude, American citizens no where near protests have been getting dragged into unmarked vehicles. Open your eyes.

Wrongful arrests aren't new, as are deporting citizens by mistake.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Also feds not cooperating or coordinating with locals is astounding (to me). Could you imagine the RCMP running around shooting people in Ottawa and not telling the locals what they’re doing? Or am I out to lunch?

It is astounding. But is it feds refusing to cooperate with locals, or locals refusing to cooperate with feds? It's uncontroversial that some local governments have publicly refused to allow their police to cooperate. (In many cases they have subsequently backed away from those policies.) Is that the case here, or not?

 

[brihard]

Wrongful arrests aren't new, as are deporting citizens by mistake.

Deporting a citizen by mistake should never happen unless that citizen falsely claims to not be a U.S. citizen and to be a foreign citizen in the country illegally, does not have any documents affording evidence of their true identity with them, and authorities are unable to ascertain their true identity despite diligent efforts. With how much has to happen to deport someone that ought to be an impossible mistake.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The woman who died is not a victim.

A person can always be a victim of her own misjudgement. ICE can be the goon squad so many people assert it is, but it is still an enforcement agency enforcing laws. Very few have tried to argue that it's purpose is inherently illegitimate. The controversy is how they execute. Any interference with law enforcement trying to carry out their legitimate duties, even if ham-fistedly and in bad faith, has potential to go south. And in this particular context (immigration enforcement), people are being egged on to interfere and resist (exhortation by politicians and public figures, posts on social media, etc).

It is common knowledge that three people in an ICE vehicle were shot. Vehicles have become a tool of choice for civil disobedience (to obstruct agents, at minimum), with an increase in vehicles used as weapons (some allegedly, if you prefer, but some undoubtedly intentionally). Presumably all the agents know these things, and their minds are situated accordingly.

"Make sure when your shift is over you go home alive." It isn't necessary to agree with the sentiment or the way it is being obeyed to understand that agents are going to err on their own side.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Why is a widowed mother and poet standing up to ICE's behavior while all those anti-tyranny advocates are looking at their feet? Unless...

Young black children get The Talk. Young middle-class children get nothing other than perhaps a sense of entitlement and a sense they can go over the top once in a while and authorities will make allowances for and yield to them.

 

[Brad Sallows]

It’s the right of a person in a free society oblong

A remarkably wonderful description of contemporary free society in the US. Absolutely to be retained for posterity.

 

[brihard]

A person can always be a victim of her own misjudgement. ICE can be the goon squad so many people assert it is, but it is still an enforcement agency enforcing laws. Very few have tried to argue that it's purpose is inherently illegitimate. The controversy is how they execute. Any interference with law enforcement trying to carry out their legitimate duties, even if ham-fistedly and in bad faith, has potential to go south. And in this particular context (immigration enforcement), people are being egged on to interfere and resist (exhortation by politicians and public figures, posts on social media, etc).

It is common knowledge that three people in an ICE vehicle were shot. Vehicles have become a tool of choice for civil disobedience (to obstruct agents, at minimum), with an increase in vehicles used as weapons (some allegedly, if you prefer, but some undoubtedly intentionally). Presumably all the agents know these things, and their minds are situated accordingly.

"Make sure when your shift is over you go home alive." It isn't necessary to agree with the sentiment or the way it is being obeyed to understand that agents are going to err on their own side.

What do you contend is the relevance of this to what happened in Minneapolis? You’re saying a lot without actually saying a lot.

 

[brihard]

A remarkably wonderful description of contemporary free society in the US. Absolutely to be retained for posterity.

Autocorrect that I caught to late to edit… Never understood that feature of this site. Allow me to correct for posterity;

“It’s the right of a person in a free society oblong as police are not obstructed from doing their jobs.”

I trust you don’t disagree?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Observing is a personal choice.

Yes, and a legitimate one.

 

[Brad Sallows]

What do you contend is the relevance of this to what happened in Minneapolis? You’re saying a lot without actually saying a lot.

State of mind. They know perhaps a fifth of the country (if not more) hates what they're doing, and they know people are willing to shoot them or run them down.

Don't interfere with law enforcement - not for ICE raids, not for drug raids, not for riot control, not for arrests, not for traffic stops - unless prepared to accept the consequences of a black swan FAFO outcome. Even if events prove you had every right and they had none, it's a gamble. It is particularly a gamble if the officers have a siege mentality, irrespective of whether they were ever suitable candidates. Keep the civil disobedience on the courthouse lawn, or at least within bounds the officers don't find potentially threatening. Almost all officers will have pretty good instincts. A few won't. Multiple the interactions by hundreds or thousands, and some of the few will be in the mix.

 

[Good2Golf]

Cell phone video from the actual ICE officer who shot Good.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2009686799271002112

 

[brihard]

Cell phone video from the actual ICE officer who shot Good.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2009686799271002112

See my comments on the other thread.


Edit by staff: Link added to brihard’s referenced comments for clarity.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I hate ICE et al wearing masks well performing public duties. If your not breaking the law why feel the need to hide your face? Just another way they are removing accountability from the government.

 

[QV]

I hate ICE et al wearing masks well performing public duties. If your not breaking the law why feel the need to hide your face? Just another way they are removing accountability from the government.

Probably because a not insignificant number of politicians are calling out the legitimacy and they fear they or family will be doxed for carrying out their duty.