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A Protesters Response To "The Ex Charging Bison" Thread

anyway, it was an amusing sidebar. I never for an instant thought that our sheep would understand their sheep dogs' perspective. If they did, they would be standing a post beside us, instead of bleating against us. But, it may have planted a seed.

I doubt it, but it may have.

As it stands, it has, once again, denigrated into the usual "America is Evil, Industrial/Military/Illuminati/Spanish Inquisition Plot theorist, apologist/appeaser/fellow traveller" sort of nonsense that rears it's silly head periodically.

Bottom line remains unchanged, the status quo continues unabated, and we will continue to defend our sheep from the wolves regardless of how much they dislike us for doing so.

Woof.
 
[
paracowboy said:
and we will continue to defend our sheep from the wolves regardless of how much they dislike us for doing so.

paracowboy, please keep defending the sheep; I need wool to keep knitting for the squaddies!


zipperhead_cop said:
I believe we have been treating our left leaning friends all wrong, and I have come to believe that we are squandering a valuable resource that we may not have considered previously...Welcome to the military, my hemp laden friends!  :warstory:

Hey! I'm a leftie and the only hemp I have is a traditional Ukrainian embroidered shirt!

I have to speak in my own defence here. I'm a leftie but I don't smoke up, wear Birkenstocks(okay so they're Eddie Bauer sandals :D) attend crappy poetry readings, or protest for the "fun" of it. Do I agree with a lot of the posts in various threads here? Nope, but that doesn't mean that I'm automatically against the military. Just because I hate the war doesn't mean I can't love the warrior.
 
+1 Paracowboy. 

Okay....lefty insert "protester". 

And, yeah.  I was just being facetious, Centurian.  Good thing I didn't elaborate on Operation: HippieShield
 
TMM said:
paracowboy, please keep defending the sheep
my privilige

I have to speak in my own defence here. I'm a leftie but I don't smoke up, wear Birkenstocks(okay so they're Eddie Bauer sandals  attend crappy poetry readings, or protest for the "fun" of it. Do I agree with a lot of the posts in various threads here? Nope, but that doesn't mean that I'm automatically against the military. Just because I hate the war doesn't mean I can't love the warrior.
and I have yet to hear you spout off half-baked theories, equate us to the Waffen SS, or bash a staunch ally. Therein lieth the difference.

We enjoy hearing from those with different view points. It's the reason we do this sort of silliness: to ensure that every man and woman in this nation can always have the freedom to do so. But, absurd conspiracy theories, insulting Canadian soldiers, or attacking an ally will always draw fire from me, and several others on this site.

And TMM, thank you for your support. It means far more than you can ever understand.
 
well we could go on with this forever, but it looks like we just see the world through a different set of eyes. 
either way, it was fun.

on to other things. :salute:
 
Thanks for coming out, and you might want to thank some of the folks for the education that you now will actively try to ignore.  It is harder to unlearn something...

Here's
one to grow on


 
After spending quite a bit of time reading everyone’s threads, there are a number of things that I would like to express to our friend  Kgerrard.

As a student at the University of Toronto, in the heart of the city, I find myself encountering people that share very similar views as yourself. My riding, Trinity and Spadina went NDP under Olivia Chow, and there is a strong socialist attitude entrenched in the area. Here are the 3 most influential schools of thought that make Left leaning people have such appalling views of the armed forces.

1) MILITARY = AMERICAN

Virtually every country in the world has a version of a national armed force. To be a state you must “be a geographically bound entity, that sets rules and regulations, and has a monopoly of force of its citizens.” To ensure the sovereignty of your country, you must be able to enforce and regulate the laws and guidelines that you set for you state (like Canada is trying to allow the Afghanistan government to bring peace and stability to the country, so they can set up a government, and carry on as sovereign state).

Many socialists often to refer to the success of Scandinavian countries, with their progressive socialist values. Let me point out that all males in Sweden after graduation are subjective to mandatory military service for 8 months. Sweden also designs, manufactures and services their own SABB fighter jets, completely state sponsored. Service is also required in Norway, Finland, Denmark, Germany, France, Austria, Switzerland and the majority of European countries. Sweden spends more on their military of a percentage of GDP per capita than Canada. True socialism believes in a strong military, not the NDP.

2) SOLDIERS = ALPHA MALE  WAR MONGLERS

This perception is most likely due to many Hollywood movies that glorify war, and undermine the purpose of professional armed forces. The Canadian Forces makes people jump through many hoops, including screens, interviews and a general aptitude test to make you fit to even be a part time reservist like myself. The vast majority of the Canadian forces members have a high school education, with 30% holding a university education (correct that if I’m wrong). The CF is composed of intelligent people, that are like-minded in the fact that we want to help make a positive difference in society. The CF is composed of a large amount of women, and represents all ethnic and religious groups in Canada. All members are subject to TIPS training on sexual and religious harassment, and racism.

3) MILITARY  CREATES WAR

Doing a minor in conflict studies, I have been forced to read dozens of academic journals about recent and past conflicts. I have done extensive research on Rwanda, and now Sudan. I have listened to every guest lecturer that has spoken at UofT on conflict resolution, and the Responsibility to Protect. Through my “superior intellectual capability”, I have come to the conclusion that if people want to kill other groups with sticks, they will do so. The primary weapon to murder over 800,000 people was a $0.10 machete, not a professional army. When societies fail, this is when we must have a highly capable and effective armed forces. We as Canadians and Western nations have a responsibility to protect those that are less capable. It would have cost 200 million dollars to send armed troops to Rwanda and end the killing. It has now over 3 billion in aid to the country.

$200 million = 800,000 peoples lives saved?

In Canada where there is flooding, forest fires, or even the unlikely place of riots, the Forces will be there. Did anyone protest CF members forest fighting in BC? People who wear uniforms are subject to higher accountability. More importantly people like Kgerrard love to see a person in uniform go down, and wants to prohibit their success. Protest all you want, it is your right. But keep in mind what exactly it is your opposing, because Stephen Harper, or Paul Martin before him is not George Bush. Do NOT confuse this issue for your anger towards the US invasion of Iraq, or their foreign policy.
Enjoy your peace games, and your protests will only enhance the training of the exercise.
 
Fiji said:
After spending quite a bit of time reading everyone’s threads, there are a number of things that I would like to express to our friend  Kgerrard.

As a student at the University of Toronto, in the heart of the city, I find myself encountering people that share very similar views as yourself. My riding, Trinity and Spadina went NDP under Olivia Chow, and there is a strong socialist attitude entrenched in the area. Here are the 3 most influential schools of thought that make Left leaning people have such appalling views of the armed forces.

1) MILITARY = AMERICAN

Virtually every country in the world has a version of a national armed force. To be a state you must “be a geographically bound entity, that sets rules and regulations, and has a monopoly of force of its citizens.” To ensure the sovereignty of your country, you must be able to enforce and regulate the laws and guidelines that you set for you state (like Canada is trying to allow the Afghanistan government to bring peace and stability to the country, so they can set up a government, and carry on as sovereign state).

Many socialists often to refer to the success of Scandinavian countries, with their progressive socialist values. Let me point out that all males in Sweden after graduation are subjective to mandatory military service for 8 months. Sweden also designs, manufactures and services their own SABB fighter jets, completely state sponsored. Service is also required in Norway, Finland, Denmark, Germany, France, Austria, Switzerland and the majority of European countries. Sweden spends more on their military of a percentage of GDP per capita than Canada. True socialism believes in a strong military, not the NDP.

2) SOLDIERS = ALPHA MALE  WAR MONGLERS

This perception is most likely due to many Hollywood movies that glorify war, and undermine the purpose of professional armed forces. The Canadian Forces makes people jump through many hoops, including screens, interviews and a general aptitude test to make you fit to even be a part time reservist like myself. The vast majority of the Canadian forces members have a high school education, with 30% holding a university education (correct that if I’m wrong). The CF is composed of intelligent people, that are like-minded in the fact that we want to help make a positive difference in society. The CF is composed of a large amount of women, and represents all ethnic and religious groups in Canada. All members are subject to TIPS training on sexual and religious harassment, and racism.

3) MILITARY  CREATES WAR

Doing a minor in conflict studies, I have been forced to read dozens of academic journals about recent and past conflicts. I have done extensive research on Rwanda, and now Sudan. I have listened to every guest lecturer that has spoken at UofT on conflict resolution, and the Responsibility to Protect. Through my “superior intellectual capability”, I have come to the conclusion that if people want to kill other groups with sticks, they will do so. The primary weapon to murder over 800,000 people was a $0.10 machete, not a professional army. When societies fail, this is when we must have a highly capable and effective armed forces. We as Canadians and Western nations have a responsibility to protect those that are less capable. It would have cost 200 million dollars to send armed troops to Rwanda and end the killing. It has now over 3 billion in aid to the country.

$200 million = 800,000 peoples lives saved?

In Canada where there is flooding, forest fires, or even the unlikely place of riots, the Forces will be there. Did anyone protest CF members forest fighting in BC? People who wear uniforms are subject to higher accountability. More importantly people like Kgerrard love to see a person in uniform go down, and wants to prohibit their success. Protest all you want, it is your right. But keep in mind what exactly it is your opposing, because Stephen Harper, or Paul Martin before him is not George Bush. Do NOT confuse this issue for your anger towards the US invasion of Iraq, or their foreign policy.
Enjoy your peace games, and your protests will only enhance the training of the exercise.

Thats a pretty good damn post Fiji.

Screw
 
Wow, all these posts is better than reading a political studies text book, we have such a broad range of emotion and intellect in these forums, thanks again for opening everyones eyes to different FACTS, not just mindless banter made up in your head or heard on the FOX 10 o'clock news, very refreshing. Cheers!!! :cdn: :salute:
 
Screw said:
Thats a pretty good damn post Fiji.

Screw

+ 1

Fiji, Thank you for wording that so eloquently.... I fear that it may fall on deaf ears though...
 
Fiji said:
After spending quite a bit of time reading everyone’s threads, there are a number of things that I would like to express to our friend  Kgerrard.

As a student at the University of Toronto, in the heart of the city, I find myself encountering people that share very similar views as yourself. My riding, Trinity and Spadina went NDP under Olivia Chow, and there is a strong socialist attitude entrenched in the area. Here are the 3 most influential schools of thought that make Left leaning people have such appalling views of the armed forces.

1) MILITARY = AMERICAN

Virtually every country in the world has a version of a national armed force. To be a state you must “be a geographically bound entity, that sets rules and regulations, and has a monopoly of force of its citizens.” To ensure the sovereignty of your country, you must be able to enforce and regulate the laws and guidelines that you set for you state (like Canada is trying to allow the Afghanistan government to bring peace and stability to the country, so they can set up a government, and carry on as sovereign state).

Many socialists often to refer to the success of Scandinavian countries, with their progressive socialist values. Let me point out that all males in Sweden after graduation are subjective to mandatory military service for 8 months. Sweden also designs, manufactures and services their own SABB fighter jets, completely state sponsored. Service is also required in Norway, Finland, Denmark, Germany, France, Austria, Switzerland and the majority of European countries. Sweden spends more on their military of a percentage of GDP per capita than Canada. True socialism believes in a strong military, not the NDP.

2) SOLDIERS = ALPHA MALE  WAR MONGLERS

This perception is most likely due to many Hollywood movies that glorify war, and undermine the purpose of professional armed forces. The Canadian Forces makes people jump through many hoops, including screens, interviews and a general aptitude test to make you fit to even be a part time reservist like myself. The vast majority of the Canadian forces members have a high school education, with 30% holding a university education (correct that if I’m wrong). The CF is composed of intelligent people, that are like-minded in the fact that we want to help make a positive difference in society. The CF is composed of a large amount of women, and represents all ethnic and religious groups in Canada. All members are subject to TIPS training on sexual and religious harassment, and racism.

3) MILITARY  CREATES WAR

Doing a minor in conflict studies, I have been forced to read dozens of academic journals about recent and past conflicts. I have done extensive research on Rwanda, and now Sudan. I have listened to every guest lecturer that has spoken at UofT on conflict resolution, and the Responsibility to Protect. Through my “superior intellectual capability”, I have come to the conclusion that if people want to kill other groups with sticks, they will do so. The primary weapon to murder over 800,000 people was a $0.10 machete, not a professional army. When societies fail, this is when we must have a highly capable and effective armed forces. We as Canadians and Western nations have a responsibility to protect those that are less capable. It would have cost 200 million dollars to send armed troops to Rwanda and end the killing. It has now over 3 billion in aid to the country.

$200 million = 800,000 peoples lives saved?

In Canada where there is flooding, forest fires, or even the unlikely place of riots, the Forces will be there. Did anyone protest CF members forest fighting in BC? People who wear uniforms are subject to higher accountability. More importantly people like Kgerrard love to see a person in uniform go down, and wants to prohibit their success. Protest all you want, it is your right. But keep in mind what exactly it is your opposing, because Stephen Harper, or Paul Martin before him is not George Bush. Do NOT confuse this issue for your anger towards the US invasion of Iraq, or their foreign policy.
Enjoy your peace games, and your protests will only enhance the training of the exercise.

There's just one problem with this post . It's a massive generalization.

Fiji has just painted a picture of the "left" Strawman that so many far-right individuals use to disparage all who are seen as having opposing views.  In my experience that term itself should be avoided as it is used to brand a group of people with wildy differing viewpoints. For instance, I agree that Canada should be in Afghanistan, and I agree with the rationale for going there in the first place. I also believe in a strong military, and think that military spending should be a much larger component of our budget. In the non- military sphere, I believe in small government and low taxes. Nevertheless, because I disagree with some of the current Canadian Government's non-military initiatives, I'm branded as a birkentock wearing hippie by members of this board. I am a former CAF infantry soldier and no one who knows me would EVER mistake me for a hippie (trust me I have bumper stickers) yet this is what happens. The "right' like to paint everyone who disagrees with them on ANY issue as being part of some grand left agenda (michael moore loving blah blah blah).  I don't think Military =  American- I don't think Soldiers = War Mongers and I certainly don't think that the existence of the military is the reason for war itself. I DO, however, believe in the essential goodness of human beings- something which Fiji seems to be saying is non-existent. For Fiji, a world without military is a world without order and, thus, chaos. If you really believe that humans are essentially evil, then what are you fighting for Fiji? I see humans as being decendants of tribes, which worked together for the "common good". Mabye that's the  difference between the left and the right then. The "left" believes man is basically good, while the "right" believes man must be told to be good.

For me if we're not inherantly "good" then there's nothing to fight for.
 
There are good-ish people. But there are VERY bad guys- Holocaust, Former Yugo, Rawanda, Muhjeeden, Taliban, and we have bad apples our selves. But I certainly dont believe people are essentially anything- original sin I suppose. Human nature is selfish. We wont sit down and negotiate with rawandan rebels. We couldnt negotiate with the Taliban(911 Comission report explains negotiations), maybe it has something to do with weaker populations being willing to give up a little bit of freedom at a time to the stronger. I.e. Dictatorships, as a way to avoid a confrontation. Its easy to say "okay "if they only oppress the Kurds and you are a Sunni....."its better then civil war....right?" ts 530 in the morning.Maybe Im just rambling?

As for the left believing people are good- thats absurd. The left is the root of social programs- the very definition of TELLING people how to act. They legislate charity. Ill admit the "right"(not that I agree with labeling, I think most things are bigger than me against you.) legislate morality.
 
Wow-this thread has been a shining page in the annals of this fine site!

Kudos to all: to the "Other Side" for coming out and fighting their case on "the wrong side of town"; and to Our Side for waging what was (with a few exceptions) a cleanly fought (if somewhat unfair...) fight. Unfair as in two guys with sticks facing a coy's worth of chain guns... (No--that's US with the chain guns)

Needless to say, as an alumnus of Afghanistan, and a participant in the beginning stages of the planning of Ex CHARGING BISON when I was still in 38 CBG, my opinions can probably be guessed pretty accurately.

I think that this exchange provided us with examples of two important things:

-our role in educating our fellow Canadians (even those who are opposed to us); and

-that our own beliefs are stronger once they are tested against opposing views.

One thing I found interesting was the recurring theme in the posts of both kg and doncab (and often in the thoughts of others of similar persuasion) that we soldiers function at some kind of subnormal level of comprehension and understanding: that we must be unaware, or uneducated, or pehaps misguided, in order to willingly follow our profession. We go off obediently and unquestioningly to do the evil bidding of the dark forces that control the world, and it is up to people such as themselves to liberate us poor minions by opening our eyes to the "truth". Hopefully by their exposure here, they will realize that other people, just as intelligent and well informed as they think themselves to be, can look at the world and see it very differently.

Another thing that is worth noting is that both of our visitors admit, at the end of the day, that there is a need for armed forces. This agreement, if it is the result of logical thought, implies an acceptance of the use of lethal force to obtain a political result. (If they don't accept that, maybe they should take another look at what they posted). They use some poorly defined concepts typical of their team's view: rubbish like "defensive" forces, or using the military purely for "nice" humanitarian missions, but at least we share some common ground. It comes down to how we choose to use the instrument. Hopefully they have broadened their understanding of the use of armed forces.

Cheers
 
Screw said:
As for the left believing people are good- that's absurd.

I'm going to remain civil because I'm unarmed ;)

I believe people are good; that's not because I lean left. Mr. TMM believes people are good and he's a Tory.

Despite my belief that people are good, I'm not living life with blinders on or viewing it through a bong induced haze. I've done work for Amnesty International and seen the incomprehensible acts some humans(and I use the term very loosely) perpetrate on others.  I have met people who have lived through the horrors inflicted upon them in Iraq, Afghanistan, Colombia, Argentina, as well as my own parents who survived Stalin, Hitler, Communism and fled a hail of bullets after Hussein's botched assassination attempt.

I know the world is SNAFU, but I also know that the majority of people I meet each day are decent human beings. Granted in your line of work you no doubt encounter the SOBs far more than the average civi so I can see where that mind set comes from.

Whether you like it or not I do believe that the majority of people are good and that they strive to do good day to day, not in huge displays but in the little every day things. Let's face it, if I'd given up on good I wouldn't be wearing red today.



 
CT,
many of my views are seen as "Right Wing", but I disagree with you (again). I, personally, feel that there are more 'good' people than 'bad'. The sad part is, that most of the 'good' people are either unable, or unwilling to actively fight for 'Good', and becoome victims by default.

To be a 'bad' person, you are inherently willing to inflict violence to promote your interests above those of your fellow man. In times of extreme duress, even 'good' people will do so, and regret it later (or not).

That is where we come in. We are 'good' people, who are willing to fight those 'bad' people, on behalf of the 'good' who are unable/unwilling to do so.

I see the species divided up very much like the Hindu concept of God (loosely defined hereafter, devout Hindus don't take offense, I understand it is far more complex. I'm simplifying, because I'm simple.):

We have Shiva, Krishna, and Brahma. The Destroyer, the Preserver, and the Creator. Three different beings, but all the same being. So it is with humanity. We have those who destroy, we have those who preserve, and we have those who create. I contrend that various bandits, criminals, tyrants, etc epitomize Shiva. Police Officers (Bless 'em, every one), Soldiers, and our ilk, are preservers. Doctors, teachers, artists, philosophers, farmers, and the like, are creators.

It is the duty of the Preservers (sheep dogs) to protect the Creators (sheep) from the Destroyers (wolves), in order that one day, Good will triumph, and we will no longer be required.
 
paracowboy said:
It is the duty of the Preservers (sheep dogs) to protect the Creators (sheep) from the Destroyers (wolves), in order that one day, Good will triumph, and we will no longer be required.

paracowboy, you're starting to sound like me LOL.

This is one sheep who'll treat you to a big bowl full of brand name dog chow, or at least a beer.

I too would love and dream of a world without war, famine, tyrants and despots but I live in this world not utopia. I haven't the balls, skills, or the mindset to be a "Preserver" or a "Destroyer" so whether I like it or not I have to be grateful that others take on that task so that I can sit back in my cozy cocoon and create.
 
I would just add to paracowboy's post that it is my belief that the vast majority of people, no matter how evil or bizarre their actions, act out of a desire to be doing good or at least doing the right thing.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Milosevic, Genghis or Louis XIV, even Saddam, all believed they were acting in the best interests of at least their families and most believed they were acting in the best interests of their people.

Even parents that kill their children often believe they are doing it to protect their children from the evils of this world.  The mental processes are often bizarre but they indicate an underlying desire to be doing good.

PS.  That doesn't mean that just because they have good intentions they shouldn't be held accountable for their despicable and dangerous actions.
 
kgerrard said:
ArmyRick, I decline to respond to your questions due to your rudeness to me via private message. Note that I'm responding to posts (mostly) in order, but I clearly can't cover everything.
That revolt was supported indirectly and directly by foreign forces which adds uncertainty as to its legitimacy.
Ones that are beneficial to them as rich nations with heavy corporate ties?
You have a rosy portrait of the RCMP in mind that blinds you to its faults. While I recognise that the majority of officers likely have good intentions, I suspect they have an analysis limited by the government's lack of complete honesty.
  You should put your tail beten your legs and run, the more you open your mouth the more bull comes out     


     Now that I have colled down Most of the statements bye some people which is thire right,
  just got the blood to boil, We are the people that would stop our cars, to help you children, Wife, Monther & Family. Not becuse we have to, but becuse we What too ! .

        I was in Haiti 04 , to give a 5 year old , a pop tart , that has neare sean one ( we have 20+) to see that face ,   The mud slieds (2 times) the people living in the cars for 4 days, no water, food ect. on a highway. We cleared the main highway in less than 6hrs. 1km. 1m deep mud hole, and the air suport, to the mud slide which 2 000+ people died.

    You sit there fat, on the gavy train, what this COUNTRY can do for you !! What have you done for this country, This country is the way you live, the best country in the world ( but you don"t like the U.N)  If we put you in a Village to talk you would last 24hrs, but I hared it before Gulf War War 1 , All about OIL , but it's not about OIL it's about people!!!!! Can we not live together !!!!!!   

          Can all the people in the world go to schoole, have safe drinking water, be safe on the streets, You have that !!!!~!   , Instead fo trowing rocks, strate a fund that you control & go to the Govm. with 1-2mill see what you start, It's better that ******** on your Family
 
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