doncab said:
"am so sick of ‘murderers and scumbags’ (and if you call the perpetrators of September 11 anything else, we do have a problem)" i agree. i just don't make exceptions if they happen to be western leaders.
Okay, so now EVERY leader in the western world is under suspicion. Who is more contemptable? The leader that takes initiative and goes to solve a problem, or the one who watches as thousands die in torture and religious oppression's, wringing their hands and hoping that throwing good wishes and money will make the problem go away. You forget, the planning for 9/11 was going on well before the execution of that plan. Wasn't a whole lot of interference before that. I remember the first World Trade Center bombing, the USS Cole, the Marine barracks and on and on. The US didn't start this thing, and most certainly they haven't gotten much help from too many nations, save for Britain and a couple others that showed up.
doncab said:
mainly because we never try. I think Neville Chamberlain's agreement didnt work because germany was a technological/military powerhouse, which the taliban is not. our argument isn't appeasment, it's that the west should stop participating and engaging in terror, start respecting the world court, follow international law and the geneva conventions. sounds reasonable to me.
Yah, sounds reasonable to me too. So please provide an example where the world court has effectively stopped a military action against Islamic extremists. Maybe you could use Rwanda....no, that was a massacre and everyone watched. Oh, wait, remember the world court's big success in Zaire? That was a ...oh, yeah. That was a massacre to. How many examples of hand sitting do you need until you realize that the UN is a useless bureaucratic cluster hump that can't do anything if a country chooses to ignore it?
[can anyone else believe that someone would openly support Chamberlain? hoo.]
doncab said:
i don't recall anyone saying we'd like to revert to religious theocracy instead. the "love it or leave it" jibe is pretty thin. we're just trying to find ways to improve what we have. if you have a flat tire, do you just trash the car?
No, most people would change it. But for your example, lets pretend that you have to call the UN in order to get permission to change it. So now you have to bring your case to a panel of 150 odd individuals to ask if you should change the tire. Then, two of the people on the panel, who have their own tire shops, say "don't change the tire, we will form a committee and find a way to fix it". Then, the one who sold the tires to you launches into a fit because the tires he sells "don't go flat, this is a blatant attempt at imperialism and I will sell no tires to anyone in the world until this injustice is spoken to". Now, everyone who is more concerned with getting their tires cheap is looking pensive, so they decide that your problem is not as important as keeping the tire merchant happy. So half a year later, the frame work for a team of inspectors is put together to come and look at the tire to see if it is in fact flat. However, two years later, when the team does show up, they look at the tire and say "yup, that looks pretty flat". They create a report, that goes to a committee who studies the results, but comes to the conclusion that "it looks a bit thin, but it's workable and we should monitor it's progress to see if further problems arise. I'm betting that the next time you get a flat, you won't be too inclined to pick up the phone. However, by not doing so, you will be labeled a war criminal and terrorist in your own right (tyrerist?) and will forever after be criticized for not calling when you had a straight forward problem.
Yup. Some good and effective stuff.
doncab said:
this is also consequently when the U.S. created the mujahadeen, "to draw the russians into an afghan trap" as zbegniew brzinski, NSA to president carter put it. if we're really serious about this, maybe we should be sure and prosecute washington along with the taliban, since they share responsibility.
Ugh. Get over the mujaheddin. The former USSR was trying to turn the whole world communist (which I imagine you would love) and they had to be stopped. The only people there was to work with at the time were the local fighters. Yes, they were trained and supplied by the US. Did it bite them in the ass? Obviously. But now, since the problem has been created, it has to be solved. You continue to argue policy, but have conveniently ignored the main thing here--the PEOPLE.
doncab said:
points aside (and still haven't had much debate on any facts i put forth) we're not saying iran or north korea is a better model to live by (which someone actually suggested we had said) nor are we "supporting" the insane ideals of any of these governments. Nor do we have any ill blood towards any individual soldiers. the war on terror is just a really good example. how can the one state (US) condemned by the UNSC for "unlawful use of force", i.e. state-sponsored terrorism(vetoed), who still harbours terrorists (carilles, constant, etc) was the first to use nukes, doesn't respect the world court, defys the non-proliferation treaty openly, openly commits war crimes, on and on...be the country in charge of stopping terror? i care about our solidiers like i care about anyone else, and when the government i pay my taxes to sends you to die for that cause, i have to question that.
Is this the "facts" that you need us to confront? The one I see that is true is "was first to use nukes". Even the Emperor of Japan himself acknowledged that until they got bombed, the Japanese would have fought until the last man, drawing the Pacific war on for years. At the time, it was the best idea with the best equipment available. The fact that it was as horrible as it was it why it has not been used since.
You have heard from every soldier here that they are willing to put their lives on the line for the people of Afghanistan. Spare us your disingenuous concern.
doncab said:
And judging by the governments neglect in caring for vetrans, i think you should question it too.
HIJACK ALERT!! Nice try. Figure your rhetoric is loosing steam, so you throw that out hoping that all of the dumb killbots will jump on it and forget about what is actually being debated? Start a new thread, and then get flamed there too.
Doncab, you and kgerrard appear to be motivated individuals who seek knowlege and first hand experience. How does this sound: we the members of Army.ca will fill a cargo container with food and medical supplies, and you two will go with it to somewhere in the Pashtun mountain range with it. We'll drop you off, say "see ya" and you can embark on a glorious adventure of dialoge and bridge building. Make sure you bring a video camera so you can rub it in when you get back.
If.
