Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) prevention / response

[Haggis]

In Northern Ireland, we provided that kind of security all the time with cordons, 'no notice' searches, and other measures to provide overt (and under cover) presence to deter potential terrorist attack. These Company and Battalion level operations were integrated with local police divisions and were very effective.

Under the US Posse Comitatus Act, this is generally prohibited.

 

[mariomike]

Under the US Posse Comitatus Act, this is generally prohibited.

For those of us unfamiliar with the Act, or to refresh our memories,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

See also,

Can't deploy the Army in the U.S. It's illegal for the president to do so and there is no provision for any State to ask for the Army (Posse Comitatus Act).

The US will never give up its guns, so Plan B should include better security.

When a pattern of violence emerges, security agencies usually stand up task forces to address them. I don't see why the Federal Government can't create a 'Soft Target Protection' force of some kind with responsibility for protecting schools, large public events, etc.

In Northern Ireland, we provided that kind of security all the time with cordons, 'no notice' searches, and other measures to provide overt (and under cover) presence to deter potential terrorist attack. These Company and Battalion level operations were integrated with local police divisions and were very effective.

Something similar to this?

Empire Shield: Soldiers stand watch to prevent another 9/11
https://www.army.mil/article/174735/empire_shield_soldiers_stand_watch_to_prevent_another_911

 

[Strike]

This strikes me as a reasonable approach. It provides some extra deterrent to anyone planning an attack, and costs far less than extra police or armed security.

I'm on the fence here.

If a school were to catch fire you certainly wouldn't expect the teachers to grab a hose and work the fire.  You'd want them to make sure the students stay safe, but that might mean grabbing a fire extinguisher at the ready in case they meet fire on the way out of the school.

In the same vein, the responsibility of the teacher when there is an emergency at a school should always be the students, and as such they should never leave them.  I'm worried that, if teachers are armed, people will expect them to go out after the shooter as opposed to covering the students in case the shooter approaches them, either in the classroom or as they are exiting or whatever.

Armed teachers should never be thought of as the tip of the spear, but more as the shield.

 

[brihard]

So here's another one for you. I get dispatched to a school shooting as a cop. I'm one of the first few guys into the place. We hear shooting coming vaguely from a part of the school and we move that way. As we're moving down the south hallways on the main floor, Mr O'Grady, the late twenties teacher in the tech department who had no class that period, comes out of a doorway with his gun drawn also moving towards the sound of the shooting, with kids running down the hallway towards him and us. I move to the sound of shooting and in doing so I see an adult male emerge from a classroom with a gun up and kids in the immediate vicinity.

Worst case, police shoot and kill a teacher. Best case, the first contact team is now stuck in a high risk takedown because they saw a person with a gun, and now because they're dealing with that individual they lose several minutes of time where we could be stopping the *actual* threat, but we think we may be dealing with either the or another suspect.

Even if teachers were to become armed, they had better hunker down in a classroom covering kids. If they go armed into the hallways they are putting themselves at huge risk and hindering the police response because we will be unable in those critical few minutes to differentiate the teacher from the shooter.

 

[mariomike]

If a school were to catch fire you certainly wouldn't expect the teachers to grab a hose and work the fire. 

A Canadian source,

"2.12 Staff members in charge of students shall NOT attempt to extinguish the fire;"
https://www.hwcdsb.ca/support/communityuseofschools/?fileID=204110

The discussion about arming teachers reminds me of when bank staff in Toronto ( who had trained and qualified on pistol ranges ) used to be armed. That came to an end however when a shot fired by one bank employee ricocheted and killed another employee.

In the recent Florida massacre, the killer created confusion by activating the fire alarm, prior to a lockdown being announced.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Even if teachers were to become armed, they had better hunker down in a classroom covering kids. If they go armed into the hallways they are putting themselves at huge risk and hindering the police response because we will be unable in those critical few minutes to differentiate the teacher from the shooter.

And prepare the school infrastructure accordingly. At my kids' school I asked when they were going to make sure that all the doors opened inward, so they could be more easily barred from the inside. (Blank stares)

 

[Piece of Cake]

And prepare the school infrastructure accordingly. At my kids' school I asked when they were going to make sure that all the doors opened inward, so they could be more easily barred from the inside. (Blank stares)

I agree for security reasons, it is best that doors open inward.  However for fire reasons, it is best if the doors open outward.  Due to this, many provinces have building code requiring exit doors to open outwards.

 

[Strike]

I agree for security reasons, it is best that doors open inward.  However for fire reasons, it is best if the doors open outward.  Due to this, many provinces have building code requiring exit doors to open outwards.

From what I've observed in my daughter's school, and remember from my own, classroom doors open in, exit doors open out.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I agree for security reasons, it is best that doors open inward.  However for fire reasons, it is best if the doors open outward.  Due to this, many provinces have building code requiring exit doors to open outwards.

I had no idea... thanks for that.

And given the relative risks, especially in Canada, I'm happy with the outwards opening doors!

 

[mariomike]

Ontario Fire Code

"In every church, school, hall, house or other building used for holding public meetings or as a place of public resort or amusement, every outer door and every door leading from every assembly room or school room shall be hinged so that it will open outwards freely"

 

[Colin Parkinson]

So here's another one for you. I get dispatched to a school shooting as a cop. I'm one of the first few guys into the place. We hear shooting coming vaguely from a part of the school and we move that way. As we're moving down the south hallways on the main floor, Mr O'Grady, the late twenties teacher in the tech department who had no class that period, comes out of a doorway with his gun drawn also moving towards the sound of the shooting, with kids running down the hallway towards him and us. I move to the sound of shooting and in doing so I see an adult male emerge from a classroom with a gun up and kids in the immediate vicinity.

Worst case, police shoot and kill a teacher. Best case, the first contact team is now stuck in a high risk takedown because they saw a person with a gun, and now because they're dealing with that individual they lose several minutes of time where we could be stopping the *actual* threat, but we think we may be dealing with either the or another suspect.

Even if teachers were to become armed, they had better hunker down in a classroom covering kids. If they go armed into the hallways they are putting themselves at huge risk and hindering the police response because we will be unable in those critical few minutes to differentiate the teacher from the shooter.

Yet they deal with that all the time because police there have to interact with CCW holders on a regular basis, during routine stops, self-defense shootings and crimes in progress. CCW holders are advised to have the gun holstered,  have it on the ground and hands up and to follow any instructions including allowing them to cuff you till they sort it out.

 

[mariomike]

To add to the armed teacher discussion, several US states - Georgia, Kansas, Ohio, Texas, West Virginia, South Carolina, New York, Tenn., and possibly others, have passed legislation to allow firefighters and paramedics to carry concealed firearms on duty.

Some see it as a workplace safety measure on par with other personal protective equipment ( PPE ) such as ballistic helmets and vests.

Firefighters and paramedics are allowed to carry in restricted areas while on duty.

They require an additional 20 hours of training.
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&ei=68SUWqr7LZCUzwKRmoHwDA&q=%22first+responders%22+carry+guns&oq=%22first+responders%22+carry+guns&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39k1.6348.10083.0.10576.2.2.0.0.0.0.109.214.0j2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.104....0.VRT2XsO9sEY

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

In Northern Ireland, we provided that kind of security all the time with cordons, 'no notice' searches, and other measures to provide overt (and under cover) presence to deter potential terrorist attack. These Company and Battalion level operations were integrated with local police divisions and were very effective.

Except unlike in Northern Ireland there's isn't an actual armed insurrection ongoing. This would violate habeus corpus along with the 4th, 5th, and 9th amendments just to protect the 2nd amendment.

 

[RocketRichard]

This thread appears to mostly have to do with active shooter situations in schools in the U.S. Arming teachers in Canada 'ain't gonna happen'.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Strike]

Lost in the noise is that a number of school districts having been allowing teachers to carry, one district had allowed it from 2010 and only recently told the parents, no one realized the teachers were armed.

I've seen that, and some of those schools were even named.  My worry with that is that some Yahoo is going to see this as an extra challenge and they've made themselves a target.

 

[Old Sweat]

As we have seen, churches have sometimes been targeted. As recently as Sunday 25 February police in the Phoenix area intercepted and arrested an armed middle-aged man who was on route to his church. His intention was to shoot as many of the staff and congregation as possible. Something he had said or done had alerted police, who acted in time.

Add: apparently a prerequisite to qualify as a mass shooter is the ability to describe one's plan on social media. Another local plot was thwarted because the two potential shooters set up a Fund Me page to raise money for their ammunition.

 

[FJAG]

ABC report on the NRA's "Good guy with a gun" theory.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/breaking-nra-backed-theory-good-guy-gun-stops/story?id=53360480

:cheers:

 

[daftandbarmy]

I've seen that, and some of those schools were even named.  My worry with that is that some Yahoo is going to see this as an extra challenge and they've made themselves a target.

Go to the Principal's Office, or else:

An Armed Principal Detained a Campus Gunman. But He’s Against Arming School Staff.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/21/us/school-shootings-teachers.html

 

[mariomike]

QUOTE

Three high-ranking Florida officials close to the law enforcement response at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School tell Fox News there was a delay in Emergency Medical Service getting into the school
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/26/florida-emergency-medical-teams-frustrated-over-delay-in-parkland-school-shooting-response.amp.html

Mike Moser, the Division Chief of Fire Administration for Coral Springs-Parkland Fire Department, which was on scene that day, released a statement in response to the growing requests from reporters about the Rescue Task Force mode — which would have paired up paramedics with law enforcement to enter the building.

One fire official said if there was a delay in the deputies' response, it would have had a domino effect on EMS.

“If they’re not going in then we’re not going in. We’re trained to go in with them,” a fire official told Fox News.

END QUOTE

 

[brihard]

I continue to quite enjoy Neil MacDonald's opinion pieces. HE's somewhat left of me politically on some stuff, but he does a pretty good job of calling stuff as it is regarding our neighbours to the south.