Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]

[Eye In The Sky]

This was literally my first question on this whole website, and it was for women.  My question got moved by the moderator. Now I have to deal with men who don't understand that women have legitimate concerns that can't be answered by a link that I have already looked into!  If you don't recognize the patronizing that women have to go through everyday, then you are part of the problem.

Let me add some reality into the idea you might have of me, or other male serving members.

1.  I am also a husband.  My wife works in a mixed-gender workplace.
2.  I am also a father, to more than 1 daughter..
3.  I have a mother and a mother-in-law.
4.  I have sisters and a sister-in-law.

If you think I am unaware of the attitudes some men in our country have, you're wrong.  If you think I am not concerned about that, re-read #s 1 thru 4 above again.

I'm not going to sit here and say I know what it feels like to be a woman.  Obviously, I don't.  I am also, however, not stupid or blind.  I used to be a bouncer, I'm well aware of what men are capable of acting like.  I've served with males who were the type you are concerned about in years now long gone.  I know what the reality is. 

Why do men feel the need to try and pat me on the back and say it's "going to be Okay", cause from what I see here, it won't be.

I'm not patting you on the back.  I don't feel the need to coddle anyone.  That makes them weak and more likely to be a victim IMO.

The CAF isn't as bad as I think you fear it is.  I really recommend you discuss this belief or worry or fear, whatever it is, with your recruiting staff.  Ask to talk to the female members of the recruiting staff.  What better first hand information could you get than that, face to face time with current serving females?

Something to consider. 

 

[George Wallace]

This is called Mansplaining.  It's exactly the thing I am worried about.  I am a highly educated woman, I will received direct entry into the military as an Officer. 

Shall we call out the Grammar Nazis on you or just accept your "typo"?

Let's see: 

You have insulted almost everyone that has replied to you, accusing then of being "condescending".

Now you are pulling out the "feminist card" and accusing everyone of "Mansplaining".

You have registered on this site less than twelve hours ago and have already taken offence with and reported a post that is over a decade old, and in the process of continually posting here offended nearly everyone who has replied to you.  Sorry, but if you can not handle this "stressful situation" perhaps you are attempting to get employed in the wrong type of job. 

Your attitude and obvious chip on your shoulders is not doing you any great service here.

(Sorry, I typed this and was called away.  Not that it matters.  Coffee_psych; you are NOTHING SPECIAL.  You are one of many who have decided to serve in the CAF.  Gender has NOTHING to do with it.  If you think you are special and need special treatment, see advice above and find another line of work.  That BS is not tolerated in the CAF.)

 

[tree hugger]

Assuming you will be treated poorly as a woman in the CF is just as wrong as assuming my male counterparts in the CF are Neanderthals... not cool.  Also, pulling the "I'm going to be an Officer Card" is not a good way to make friends...

I've been a female in the CF for 12+ years (well, I was female before I joined too... hehe) and haven't had any problems.  I'm not sure you have had much exposure to the CF and our members so I recommend doing a lot of reading on the forum - there are many here who have lots of knowledge and experience.  I wouldn't discount views coming from men either...as with the CF, this site tends to take input from all genders equally. 

:2c:

 

[bscriber]

Sadly, this type of attitude is becoming more prevalent in universities across Canada--instead of bringing everyone together, everyone is being classified according to groups.  I had the privilege of teaching part time at a university in Ontario while working at my job, but couldn't handle the need for everyone to have a "safe space" when they did not like another's opinion in a seminar.  This is what the OP wanted and was automatically expecting to get, as universities are quick to provide these, lest they get accused of genderism, colonialism, racism etc.

University graduates today simply do not understand that the world outside the ivory tower doesn't work that way--whether in military or civilian life.  I was inspired to join the military by both my male and female friends that served in uniform.

To the OP:  Your attitude might not be the reason your application is slow.  The Federal bureaucracy works that way for everyone.  I know, because I used to work for it before I went into the private sector.  I hope you are able to succeed in getting in if this is truly what you want to do.  Just be careful of alienating men who are feminists as well--an open attitude to accepting people from all schools of thought, whether you agree or not will go along way to having people listen to your arguments.  Many men believe in equal opportunity of treatment for women.  I am one of them, and it would be a pleasure to serve along side you--as long as you can respect that I am a man trying to make my way in the world, as much as you are a woman doing the same.

Just my  :2c:.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Sadly, this type of attitude is becoming more prevalent in universities across Canada--instead of bringing everyone together, everyone is being classified according to groups.  I had the privilege of teaching part time at a university in Ontario while working at my job, but couldn't handle the need for everyone to have a "safe space" when they did not like another's opinion in a seminar.  This is what the OP wanted and was automatically expecting to get, as universities are quick to provide these, lest they get accused of genderism, colonialism, racism etc.

Canada is a safe space.  People died to make it a safe space, people have died and sacrificed and are deployed today to keep it a safe space.  Those whiny types you talk about in your post above...they need to remember they are safe.  And not because of anything they've done, they are simply reaping the benefits others have paid for.

I'll not entertain these soft, mushy types or be an 'enabler' of their behaviour or demands either.  I hope their bubble doesn't pop too loudly when they run into people like me in the real world. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

Please, this question is meant for women and their experiences.  It is not for men. Thank you for your help on this topic.

Fortunately you don't get to decide who answers your questions.  You can ask for input from specific people but no one here is obligated to answer,  or not answer,  in accordance with your desires.

 

[DAA]

This is very condescending...I know how to search a website.

Come again?  You had asked a valid question and seeing as you were looking for a response from "women", I thought it prudent to direct you to the link on the website, so you could actually see and hear just what current serving female members had to say about what it was like to have a career in the CAF.  Some of the women profiled, I actually know, have worked with and or for and have great respect for all of them and many more.

Not entirely sure what you are looking for here in the way of responses, other than looking for replies from women ONLY but your not starting off very well as you can see from above.

The CAF is gender neutral and we don't care what your gender is.  Do your job, do it well and be a member of the "team", that's all we ask.

 

[RCDtpr]

Being that this individual immediately started claiming she was going to be harassed by the men of the CF and gets mad whenever someone points out they aren't correct, gets defensive, and makes sure we all know she's highly educated who is going to get direct entry as an officer (like that has never been done before) I'll have to assume she's nothing but a troll looking to elicit reactions.....which is what she's getting.

 

[PuckChaser]

The CAF is gender neutral and we don't care what your gender is.  Do your job, do it well and be a member of the "team", that's all we ask.

Agreed. LBTGQ, black, yellow, red, purple, brown, orange: We don't care what you are or what your skin colour is. Do your job, do it well, and you'll have so much respect and admiration, you might deliberately screw something up so people stop tasking you with things.

 

[cld617]

I am sure that many men are highly honourable in the military, but even the most honourable of men go against their nature at times

With a sexist attitude like this, you're actually working against the efforts being made to combat the problems you're ill-experienced to claim rampant.

"modes of thinking that devalue members on the basis of their sex"

Straight from the Op Order itself. Your line of thinking is in direct contradiction to the Orders given to stamp out inappropriate behavior. You would only add to the problem, so please, stay out of this organization.

 

[Coffee_psych]

Shall we call out the Grammar Nazis on you or just accept your "typo"?

Let's see: 

You have insulted almost everyone that has replied to you, accusing then of being "condescending".

Now you are pulling out the "feminist card" and accusing everyone of "Mansplaining".

You have registered on this site less than twelve hours ago and have already taken offence with and reported a post that is over a decade old, and in the process of continually posting here offended nearly everyone who has replied to you.  Sorry, but if you can not handle this "stressful situation" perhaps you are attempting to get employed in the wrong type of job. 

Your attitude and obvious chip on your shoulders is not doing you any great service here.

(Sorry, I typed this and was called away.  Not that it matters.  Coffee_psych; you are NOTHING SPECIAL.  You are one of many who have decided to serve in the CAF.  Gender has NOTHING to do with it.  If you think you are special and need special treatment, see advice above and find another line of work.  That BS is not tolerated in the CAF.)

Calling people out on being condescending isn't an insult.  I did call someone a ding dong...but they did imply I was a ding dong first.  So that was simply being fair-handed.

When has mansplaining become a feminist term? I'm not a feminist! I will therefore stop using this term, forth-with, sir!

 

[Coffee_psych]

Being that this individual immediately started claiming she was going to be harassed by the men of the CF and gets mad whenever someone points out they aren't correct, gets defensive, and makes sure we all know she's highly educated who is going to get direct entry as an officer (like that has never been done before) I'll have to assume she's nothing but a troll looking to elicit reactions.....which is what she's getting.

I'm really not, I actually had a legitimate question, but it got lost in this calamity.  I think it got started when my thread got blended with a bunch of others, and now it seems like many of us should be in a reality TV show together.

 

[Lightguns]

Madam, viewing your 24 posts and as a retired officer, father of two female military NCMs and ex husband of another, I doubt you will make a difference as well. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

  I think it got started when my thread got blended with a bunch of others, and now it seems like many of us should be in a reality TV show together.

It was started when you presumed one of the most polite and helpful members here was being condescending then started acting like a petulant child with everyone else.

You say you "need"  to hear from a woman's point of view,  so you're asking the question on an open forum where you can't confirm the gender or even service of people your asking?  Don't make life choices based off anonymous input.

Own up to the shitty attitude you instantly took with people here and maybe you'll dig yourself out of the hole you dug. 

 

[Andraste]

Coffee_Psych,

Hello,

As a woman in the CAF with 35 years of service (which I believe went well) I think I can respond to your query from an objective point of view.  To be clear when I say woman I mean transgender woman.

So to respond to your question . . . Can you succeed as a woman in the CAF?  Certainly, I have done quite well for myself even after transitioning in one of the most Alpha male dominated environments.  Some of my best female friends are senior officers, commanding officers, senior NCMs doing jobs which were at one time considered stereotypically male.  Did they face harassment at times?  Some did and some did not but, if you take a sample of women in the workplace outside of the CAF, the statistics will mimic what we find within the CAF.  To be clear this does not make it right nor do I do condone this behavior and will be the first to call someone on it (male or female . . . yes it does happen).  Every person (woman or man) in the CAF has the right to be assessed as a person based on their merit not their grouping.  For the most part this is what occurs. The CAF takes sexual harassment/misconduct very seriously and processes are being put into place to ensure it is dealt with appropriately. 

You took quite the beating in this thread and to be honest, it was warranted.  As a woman, I understand your defensiveness and reticence however, you came out swinging to a member who only wanted to help and it went downhill from there.  You accused almost everyone of being condescending when you were doing the very same thing.  In addition, you basically accused every male in the CAF of being a potential harasser . . . which is not true.  Yes there are as “Eye in the Sky” so aptly put “Ding Dongs” out there but these folks are being dealt with when they crop up.  Is the system perfect?  By no means but we (the CAF) are trying to move forward and I would say a majority of the serving members get it.

Yes some of the comments were blunt but that is the CAF.  Should you join, you will find a lot of blunt comments from the various leaders (male and female) who you are subordinate to.  I suspect at some point, you will become just as blunt in your dealings . . . it is the nature of the beast.  There is nothing wrong with standing your ground but there is an old saying . . . “you have to pick the hill you want to die on” and this was one you should not have died on.  The advice was sound in the beginning but you got immediately defensive and others returned in kind.  That is human nature.  Look, I made a similar blunder when I first came here but realized that what I was accusing others of doing, I was doing myself . . . try being a bit introspective before you launch. 

I don’t think you are a bad person, I don’t know much about you.  I do get the sense you are passionate about things and that can be a help or hindrance.  You noted you are an educated woman and coming in as DEO.  The mere fact you mentioned your education well . . . it does not impress people.  There are plenty of highly educated people (men and women) in the CAF at all rank levels.  Education is only half the battle when it comes to being a leader; it is declarative knowledge at best.  How you use that knowledge interacting with others will determine the leader you become.  I have had counselling sessions with junior officers who were struggling with leading their sections/teams. The number one defense from them was that their subordinates do not respect them or their education which they worked hard to achieve.  I explained that people have to respect the rank . . . not the person . . . that is earned.  Education is a body of knowledge but if a leader is hanging her/his hat on that hook only . . . well just saying that will be their undoing.  Respect comes from demonstrating leadership not throwing down your academic credentials.  The smartest person I have ever known went no further than Grade 10 academically but the body of knowledge they amassed during their career was beyond approach.  The dumbest person I ever knew was a PhD professor of mine who had no understanding of people and how to deal with them. 

As I said, you took quite the beating.  If you want to be in the CAF then it will occur again and not because you are a woman but because you cannot take a moment to reflect on how to deal with people.  That will be your undoing as a potential leader.  This is not to say you can’t call BS when someone is doing something they should not be doing . . . every CAF member (woman or man) should do so.  It just means that temper that passion with introspective review to determine if there fire where there is smoke or is it just smoke. 

This is a good group of folks but, we are not the gatekeepers to the CAF . . . you are.  If you truly want a career in the CAF as a woman, I say go for it.  Will achieve great things, become the CDS one day?  Perhaps.  Will you run up against intolerance because you are woman?  Perhaps.  How you choose to deal with that intolerance will make all the difference though.  The question back to you is . . . Are you prepared to fight for your ideas as an officer in the CAF to make the system better?

Cheers

Andraste

 

[SeaKingTacco]

A very good post, Andraste. Thank-you.

 

[Remius]

Andrast's post should be stickied or pinned somewhere.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I did call someone a ding dong...but they did imply I was a ding dong first.  So that was simply being fair-handed.

That would have been me that you called an ignorant ding dong;  you'd of noticed I chose to bypass that post.  :nod:

If you take a moment to go thru my previous posts you'll see, yes I used to term ding-dong a few times, but never directed it to you personally. 

Like any workplace, there are going to be ding-dong's (both male and female) who colour outside the lines of our conduct and ethics standards and rules...

I'll speak for myself;  I have no problems with women OR men in the military.  Unless they are unable to do there job.  Or think they are special.  Or think their job is only 8-4, Monday to Friday.  That kind of stuff.

If you get in to the CAF, you'll likely find that same attitude in 99% of the people you serve with.  Most of us don't have time for ding-dongs, regardless of what bathroom they use.

Hopefully some current / former serving females will be along to give you the info you're looking for.

Maybe you inferred as opposed to I implied.  Not a big deal but might help you see people were really just trying to help in what little way they can.

Females in the military successful?  Well, my Commanding Officer is a female.  There are female Senior NCOs and Officers on my crew as well.  We have female technicians and AERE Officer in charge of maintenance crews. 

That's a snapshot perspective on the 'promotions, career, etc' aspect of your original question from me, currently working at an operational RCAF Squadron.  I also served with females in various trades from Clerks to Crewmen in the army before switching to the Air Force years ago, but I can't comment on the '2016' reality of working with females in the army so...I left it to my current environment.

Hopefully you're able to see that those who answered were really just trying to help you see things in line with reality.  :2c:

 

[Occam]

(Also where is my typo?  :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[)

Which one?

As a woman in the military, have you felt respected, listened to, promoted and acknowledged for your work, same as the men...or at least as much as any other profession? I have deep concerns because of the militaries military's track record as to whether or not I am making a huge mistake by continuing the application process with the CAF.  Advice on this would be great.

Okay again, this is very condescending.  The Canadian military is also facing inquiries into women in the Canadian military who have been raped and have been singled out to face humiliating tasks.  SO though I appreciate your defensiveness, I am on the side of wanting to see a change in attitude with-in within the military and from the public, to see that Canadian military as a respectable and honourable society. 

I don't know why my comment was put in this thread, since I only want to speak to women....

It is a little obvious...Since the military is currently facing a number of investigations into sexual miss-conduct misconduct.  Though my concerns have little to do with what the women in the military. It has more to do with the highly aggressive men.  I am sure that many men are highly honourable in the military, but even the most honourable of men go against their nature at times.  This is complicated, but is there a women only thread?  Cause I'm already getting backlash from my question...

This is called Mansplaining.  It's exactly the thing I am worried about.  I am a highly educated woman, I will received direct entry into the military as an Officer.  However is if this is how I am treated on a forum after a question that was meant for women, I doubt I'll be able to make a difference when I actually begin with the CAF.

Calling people out on being condescending isn't an insult.  I did call someone a ding dong...but they did imply I was a ding dong first.  So that was simply being fair-handed.

When has mansplaining become a feminist term? I'm not a feminist! I will therefore stop using this term, forth-with forthwith, sir!

I let a few slide as they were simply internet jargon, and because I didn't want to make it look like I was bashing you.  If you think I'm being picky here, wait until you get to basic training and they pick you up for things that aren't even there...simply to test your mettle.

Respectfully submitted by a high school dropout. 

 

[Coffee_psych]

Coffee_Psych,


As a woman in the CAF with 35 years of service (which I believe went well) I think I can respond to your query from an objective point of view.  To be clear when I say woman I mean transgender woman.

Thank you, though the last 3 paragraphs were unbearingly personal, your first paragraph does answer my question and acknowledge my point.  Acknowledging that women do face harassment in all careers is what I was trying to get across in my comments, except people responded thinking that I expected abuse in the army.  It isn't what I said or meant.

It is impressive to hear from a trans-woman in the army, to be honest I thought you were a myth, like a unicorn, neat.