Afghan memorials (other than the Kandahar cenotaph) - merged

[Blackadder1916]

Here's how they did it in Washington DC for the Korean War memorial ...

And they're not finished yet. From just over a week ago.

Korean War Veterans Memorial Wall Groundbreaking Ceremony

The Korean War Veterans Memorial Foundation hosted a groundbreaking ceremony for the Korean War Veterans Memorial Wall of Remembrance at the National Mall in Washington, D.C. South Korean President Moon Jae-In attended the ceremony and made brief remarks.

www.c-span.org

And in comparison, the Korean War Monument in Ottawa

Monument to Canadian Fallen (Korean War Monument) - Canada.ca

www.canada.ca

 

[Edward Campbell]

And they're not finished yet. From just over a week ago.

Korean War Veterans Memorial Wall Groundbreaking Ceremony

The Korean War Veterans Memorial Foundation hosted a groundbreaking ceremony for the Korean War Veterans Memorial Wall of Remembrance at the National Mall in Washington, D.C. South Korean President Moon Jae-In attended the ceremony and made brief remarks.

www.c-span.org

And in comparison, the Korean War Monument in Ottawa

Monument to Canadian Fallen (Korean War Monument) - Canada.ca

www.canada.ca

Just a personal thing ... I like our Korean Memorial, it is a mirror image of the one in Busan.

 

[dangerboy]

Just a personal thing ... I like our Korean Memorial, it is a mirror image of the one in Busan.View attachment 65306

It was designed by a 2 PPCLI veteran of the Battle of Kapyong, Vincent R. Courtnay.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Good news, looks like the team Stinson proposal won;

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/monument-afghanistan-indigenous-artist-1.6881356 from CBC

"It is made up of four portals, where an interior area is the sanctuary where the fallen are remembered. Inscribed on the walls of three of the quadrants is the year, names of the fallen and maple leaves, in several rows. The fourth southeast quadrant wall facing the direction of Afghanistan is dedicated to fallen Afghan allies. In the centre, four bronze flak jackets stand draped on crosses — utilitarian yet poignant reminders of protection."

Four bronze flak jackets draped on crosses — part of Team Stimson's design concept for the National Monument to Canada's Mission in Afghanistan. (Team STIMSON)

 

[KevinB]

Good news, looks like the team Stinson proposal won;

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/monument-afghanistan-indigenous-artist-1.6881356 from CBC

Not sure if I’d call that good news, but it did suck less than the others.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Not sure if I’d call that good news, but it did suck less than the others.

It was the only one recognizable as a war monument, or a monument at all really.

Could have been better, and I don't mind it really. It's also down the street from the Golden Snitch, which is probably the worst Battle of the Atlantic monument on the planet.

Link to the 5 finalists for convenience
https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/art-monuments/upcoming-projects/survey-national-monument-afghanistan.html

 

[DeweyDecimal]

Good news, looks like the team Stinson proposal won;

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/monument-afghanistan-indigenous-artist-1.6881356 from CBC

Actually it looks like they didn't win but where chosen arbitrarily despite the rules of the competition :

Monument commémoratif de la mission du Canada en Afghanistan | Quand le gouvernement Trudeau écarte les gagnants du podium

Pour ériger un monument afin de commémorer la mission canadienne en Afghanistan, le gouvernement fédéral a mis sur pied un concours de design et demandé à un jury de choisir le gagnant. Mais voilà, au bout du processus, le même gouvernement a mis de côté ses propres règles, a écarté l’équipe...

www.lapresse.ca

 

[Furniture]

Actually it looks like they didn't win but where chosen arbitrarily despite the rules of the competition :

Monument commémoratif de la mission du Canada en Afghanistan | Quand le gouvernement Trudeau écarte les gagnants du podium

Pour ériger un monument afin de commémorer la mission canadienne en Afghanistan, le gouvernement fédéral a mis sur pied un concours de design et demandé à un jury de choisir le gagnant. Mais voilà, au bout du processus, le même gouvernement a mis de côté ses propres règles, a écarté l’équipe...

www.lapresse.ca

Seems like despite not going with the jury choice, VAC/GoC made the right choice.

From the article via Google Translate:

When I asked the Department of Veterans Affairs – three times rather than once – how the government had used to dethrone the winners, I did not receive an answer to my question. Instead, I was repeatedly told that the government had "made this decision, which is consistent with the feedback received from Veterans, their families and others who participated in the mission."

Using committees and artists is how we ended up with this....

 

[DeweyDecimal]

Seems like despite not going with the jury choice, VAC/GoC made the right choice.

It's not about the choice but it's the integrity of the selection process : the jury's decision should be binding. If they wanted the final design to be chosen through an online poll, they just shouldn't have held a design competition.

 

[Furniture]

It's not about the choice but it's the integrity of the selection process : the jury's decision should be binding. If they wanted the final design to be chosen through an online poll, they just shouldn't have held a design competition.

If it was an Alberta company that lost out to the veteran chosen design would you and La Presse feel the same?

 

[DeweyDecimal]

If it was an Alberta company that lost out to the veteran chosen design would you and La Presse feel the same?

I know I would.

I happen to be part of a lot of design competitions and work closely with professionals advisors and they take the integrity of the process very very seriously. And it's very clear from the start that point of a competition is to respect the jury's decision.

If you want a very specific result, don't do a design competition.

If you want elected officials to be able to influence the result, don't do a design competition.

If you want the public or anyone other than the jury to make the decision , don't do a design competition.

 

[Furniture]

I know I would.

I find it curious that somebody would want a process to triumph over making the right decision. Canadians preferred the winning proposal, and since it's a national memorial not a roundabout, I think the opinion of Canadians matters more than a few individuals wrapped up in the architecture and arts worlds.

As much as I like pointing out when the GoC makes a bad decision, I will also give credit when they make a smart one.

Lastly, I didn't see on the government pages anywhere where they said the final decision would be the jury's either. Maybe it had been listed somehwree, but based on the pages for the project, it seems to indicate the jury's job was to determine the shortlist of contenders.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Seems like despite not going with the jury choice, VAC/GoC made the right choice.

From the article via Google Translate:



Using committees and artists is how we ended up with this....

Or this... awful, really awful IMHO.

Despite the 'keep off' signs last time I was there, last year, it was covered in kids jumping all over it like it was some kind of playground apparatus

https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/overseas/second-world-war/england/green-park-memorial

 

[Furniture]

Or this... awful, really awful IMHO.

Despite the 'keep off' signs last time I was there, last year, it was covered in kids jumping all over it like it was some kind of playground apparatus


View attachment 79709

https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/overseas/second-world-war/england/green-park-memorial

They are both great examples of what happens when the artists are left to their own devices... I'm sure if you're deep into the art world both memorials make sense, but to the rest of us they are just odd.

 

[RangerRay]

Seems like despite not going with the jury choice, VAC/GoC made the right choice.

From the article via Google Translate:



Using committees and artists is how we ended up with this....

What the heck is that?!?!

 

[Furniture]

What the heck is that?!?!

The Royal Canadian Navy Monument... How could you not know based on the design?

 

[Navy_Pete]

What the heck is that?!?!

It was almost immediately nicknamed the golden snitch. The first time I saw it was at a Battle of the Atlantic ceremony and I couldn't stop laughing for a few minutes, which was really inappropriate given the day but warranted. It's even stupider in person at a really random location.

Edit to add; Google street view is a bit dated, but if the link works, you can kind of see the monument under construction at the tip of this small island on the Ottawa river beside the footpath. It's a nice spot generally, but unless you read the plaque it just looks like some kind of random Harry Potter related plinth. The benches are nice on a sunny day though.

Google Maps

 

[Maxman1]

Harry DeWolf and the Golden Snitch?

 

[DeweyDecimal]

I find it curious that somebody would want a process to triumph over making the right decision. Canadians preferred the winning proposal, and since it's a national memorial not a roundabout,

You can argue ad nauseam about the result and the "best" design. My point is simply that the artists, architects and members of the jury took part in the competition in good faith and laboured under the impression that a certain set of rules where in place. And then the rules changed. It's just looks very bad.

I think the opinion of Canadians matters more than a few individuals wrapped up in the architecture and arts worlds.

The members of the Jury where chosen by the sponsors of the competition (so VAC and Heritage most probably) specifically because of their qualifications. In a design competition, the sponsor delegate the responsibility of choosing the laureate to the jury and that's the whole point of the process. Once again, if you're not willing to accept the decision of a jury made up of people you specifically chose, you shouldn't organize a design competition.

It's perfectly fine to want a popularity contest. You just need to say so clearly at the beginning.

As much as I like pointing out when the GoC makes a bad decision, I will also give credit when they make a smart one.

Lastly, I didn't see on the government pages anywhere where they said the final decision would be the jury's either. Maybe it had been listed somehwree, but based on the pages for the project, it seems to indicate the jury's job was to determine the shortlist of contenders.

As I've mentioned earlier, the jury's job was to determine both the short list of finalists and select the laureate.

In most cases, a design competition replaces a call for tenders ; the regulations for a competition are in effect contractual documents.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Maybe don't put a jury together for a veterans memorial that doesn't include any veterans?

You don't need special qualifications to look at a memorial and see if it actually represents what is supposed to be memorialized, and you can probably make a solid arguement that it should be a panel of non specialists that is representative of the population.

Special juries tend to have their heads way up their ass and get more carried away with concepts and other abstract ideas, and then you end up with weird stupid shit totally divorced from whatever it is it's supposed to memorialize.

The National War Memorial, Korean War Memorial, Aboriginal Veteran memorial are all very easily identifiable as what they are for, and communicate a clear message.

The design the jury picked communicated shade I guess, but completely removed any linkage to the real human cost of the war, in both deaths, and physical/mental injuries.

Agree that putting a process in place and then ignoring the process is probably not great, but at the end of the day that was the only design out of the 4 that wasn't some kind of high brow conceptual piece of trash.