Air CIC Prohibited from wearing CADPAT?

[armyvern]

The Navy CIC officers that I work with have all been issued Cadpat.  When I see them next, I'll have to ask what their scale of issue is.

There is none. 

Unless. of course, they are on a long-term contract in a position which requires them to wear it. That, with those changes a couple years ago, needs to be a position role in direct support of the CCM. IIRC, there's a thread in this forum somewhere talking about the axe coming down to cease and desist the long-term employment of CIC officers in positions which were not supporting the CCM.

 

[armyvern]

The Sea element CIC officers can obtain NCD's for their duties and the Army element is entitled to basic operational clothing and equipment from scale D01301, but that is all. 

And, we'll clarify this while we are at it.

Land CIC Officers are NOT kitted under scale D01301. If they were, they'd have rucks, TVs, WW Boots, helmets ... yadda yadda yadda.

That is the Land Force Operational Field Equipment and Entitlement Scale. It is applicable to all personnel of the RegF and Primary ResF employed in Land positions directly supporting Land Operations (that includes blue, black, green and purple pers if they are posted into an entitled CLS billet).

CIC scales of entitlement are not one in the same; they are not in employed in operational positions supporting the Land Force.

 

[Sloaner]

Thanks Vern, perhaps we've gotten it wrong along the way.  I know that the D01301 clothing only is what has been taught so far so any clarrification is appreciated.

 

[armyvern]

Okay... I've got a question and Vern can answer this probably... WHAT happened to ALL the CAG kit that we turned in? If CIC requires field clothing, why can't they wear the old CAG stuff? I'm sorry, but I'm a firm believer that CIC does NOT require CADPAT kit. They are NOT operational and hence operation equipment and clothing are not needed at all for them. There should still be plenty o that CAG stuff left shouldn't there? Not to mention we all had to turn in our CAG Gore-tex and fleece amongst others, instead of selling them off, why don't we give it to the CIC?

Sorry, missed this one.

All the OG107 combats were issued off to the cadets. Every single set that we took back in Gagetown (thousands of sets -- just from CAP candidiates when we converted them!!) went to Camp Argonaut and some back to 25CFSD for re-distribution to other CSTCs.

CIC are now part of the ResF, although they are not PRes. As part of the ResF ... they do have entitlements to cadpat.

CIC = Cadpat. Cadet = CAG.

CIC does not = cadet.

Cadets are part of nothing -- no component.

CIC are. That's the difference.

 

[armyvern]

MedTech I couldn't agree with you more, I hope not to offend others that are CIC Army.  But when CIC officers were being issued Cadpat before F/T Reg and Res that just seemed wrong.  As for the wearing of the old uniforms I don't see how that would be inappropriate, but then again what I don't know could be a lot.

Just my 2 cents.

Air CIC officers did get it (their merged cadpat) before some of the RegF here got cadpat. Why??

Because the RegF & ResF around here belong to the Army, hence CTS cadpat (different style than the merged issued to AF personnel --although we all have the same stuff now) was what they were entitled to. This place, being a Pri 6 trg location was the lowest of the Army's priorities for issue.

The Air CIC cadpat was issued as part of the Air Force CEMS (Clothing & Equipment Millineum Standard) Project. Two different beasts ... ergo the difference. The AF also purchased enough to kit all of the Blue types out all at once ... unlike the Army who phased in the purchasing and issue.

That's why Air CIC officers did indeed get their CEMS cadpat issued before some Land RegF & ResF personnel did. But, I can tell you that Air CIC officers were the last ones to be issued it by the Air Force. We sized all the Air Ops pers here locally, and we also sized the Air CIC, sending our orders to the CEMS project ... they distributed to us here in Gagetown, and we issued ... RegF & ARAF first ... Air CIC last.

That's the same way the Army did it ... they just took a lot longer to buy it and get it into the system.

 

[armyvern]

If another reason is necessary, it's that the old pattern combats are no longer being produced and you can only go on issuing used uniforms from existing stock for so long before running into problems with sizing and such.  There are something close to 7000 CIC officers in the Canadian Forces spread out over the country.  It would be a serious logistical challenge to maintain enough various sizes of a uniform that is no longer being produced in each location necessary to provide for issues and exchanges.

Neill,

I know we've been through this before. I will assure you once again that there are thousands of sets of OG107 combats STILL in the system, being held on charge by CSTCs ... and a great many of those sets are in mint, manufacturer sealed boxes. Thousands.

7000 CIC officers is diddly squat. Clothing Stores here is a pretty small building ... and we held OG107 combats, AF CEMS cadpat, CTS cadpat TW, 3 enviornmental DEUs, Cash sales, and shitloads of operational Army kit ... for the 8500 personnel we support just out of this building in all the size ranges!! There's methods to figuring out how many of each size you should hold .. "usage rates." That's what clothing stores does. It always has. Including the one supporting those CIC officers accross the country.

It doesn't suddenly become a logistical nightmare to hold uniforms in various sizes just because it may be Olive drab in colour vice cadpat, we've always held many types of uniforms in all the size ranges. But heck, now that the DEU is gone ... the supporting clothing stores near you has lots of room for some OG on the shelf if 1 CAD has indeed killed the Air CIC entitlement to cadpat.

It'll just get recalled from CSTCs to issue to the CICs. I'll check the scales in the morning.

Edited to address this:

The issue of operational vs. non-operational is irrelevant: combats are now worn as daily garrison dress by CF members of all stripes in offices, classrooms, and everywhere else.

Operational/non-operational certainly IS relevant. And, NDHQ has deemed it such -- they have deemed that the CIC are part of the Reserve Force, but NOT part of the PRIMARY ResF. The Primary ResF is an operational Force, and you are not. That is a fact, and that is why your entitlements are different and why you have your own scale of entitlement quite seperate from the RegF and the Primary ResF. That's why you are only entitled to 2 sets ... and NO gortex. They are not the same thing ... at all ... and it is relevant.

RegF members and PRes working with cadpat as their DoD in classrooms, garrison, and everywhere else are doing such in performance of their daily duties. Since when is wearing a uniform a daily duty required by a CIC officer?? Yes, there are cases where some CIC officers ARE wearing a uniform daily (a very very select few of them) when on long-term FULL-time employment supporting the CCM -- in those cases (see my response to AirMich) they then fall under another scale of entitlement, NOT the CIC scale. Yes indeed, there is a BIG difference.

 

[Sloaner]

Here is the listing from scale D01301 pertinent to the CIC.  I think it explains the conditions properly.  Mentions nothing about normal entitlement to AIR CIC Officers working outside the ACSTC.  In our supply course the Air CIC scale is limited to D01103, and it does not indicate any entitlement for the CADPAT clothing merged or not.  Of course there are always moinor errors or omissions that are unintentional.

Note 2 (g)
"This scale is applicable to all Army CIC personnel. Issues are to be made within the limits of sub-categories D01301AA, AB and AC (less CTS items) and only for items which are actually needed by the
individual for the performance of his duties. This scale is also applicable to Navy and Air CIC personnel selected to participate at a Army Cadet Summer Training Center when authorized by the Commanding
Officer of the Training Center. Items will be withdrawn on completion of Summer Training Centre duties.

Of course my reference could be old as well, and things can change.  Just trying to help.

 

[Neill McKay]

I know we've been through this before. I will assure you once again that there are thousands of sets of OG107 combats STILL in the system, being held on charge by CSTCs ... and a great many of those sets are in mint, manufacturer sealed boxes. Thousands.

I don't recall having been through this before, but maybe we have.  Whatever amount of the stuff is in stores now, any product that is no longer manufactured will, sooner or later, run into supply problems -- just later than I would have guessed.

7000 CIC officers is diddly squat. Clothing Stores here is a pretty small building ... and we held OG107 combats, AF CEMS cadpat, CTS cadpat TW, 3 enviornmental DEUs, Cash sales, and shitloads of operational Army kit ... for the 8500 personnel we support just out of this building in all the size ranges!! There's methods to figuring out how many of each size you should hold .. "usage rates." That's what clothing stores does. It always has. Including the one supporting those CIC officers accross the country.

Obviously I'm not a supply system SME, so I'm open to gaining some new knowledge on this, but it seems to me that providing a uniform -- in all the sizes necessary to outfit whoever might come through the door -- only worn by 7000 pers scattered all across the country (and therefore supported by many clothing stores) would present a bigger challenge than doing so in one building for 8500 pers who are all in the same place.  (If, in this hypothetical situation, the old-pattern combats were stored centrally and distributed through Clothing Online then the problem would disappear.  The model in my mind is similar to that used for other operational clothing, in which is held locally and it issued in person at clothing stores.)

Operational/non-operational certainly IS relevant. And, NDHQ has deemed it such -- they have deemed that the CIC are part of the Reserve Force, but NOT part of the PRIMARY ResF. The Primary ResF is an operational Force, and you are not. That is a fact, and that is why your entitlements are different and why you have your own scale of entitlement quite seperate from the RegF and the Primary ResF. That's why you are only entitled to 2 sets ... and NO gortex. They are not the same thing ... at all ... and it is relevant.

Let me be clearer then: the fact that CIC officers do not typically work in an operational environment does not provide an argument to support their being issued former pattern, vice current pattern, uniforms, as the post to which I was replying seemed to suggest.

RegF members and PRes working with cadpat as their DoD in classrooms, garrison, and everywhere else are doing such in performance of their daily duties. Since when is wearing a uniform a daily duty required by a CIC officer?? Yes, there are cases where some CIC officers ARE wearing a uniform daily (a very very select few of them) when on long-term FULL-time employment supporting the CCM -- in those cases (see my response to AirMich) they then fall under another scale of entitlement, NOT the CIC scale. Yes indeed, there is a BIG difference.

It's not relevant to my argument whether one works one, three, or six days a week.  I was thinking in terms of the environment: an office rather than the field.  The post to which I was replying suggested that CIC officers should not wear current-pattern combats because our work is not usually in an operational environment.  I was only pointing out that it's become normal for CF members in a wide variety of occupations to wear combats as their daily dress -- including members whose work is, like that of a CIC officer, primarily in an office or similar environment.

 

[armyvern]

Here is the listing from scale D01301 pertinent to the CIC.  I think it explains the conditions properly.  Mentions nothing about normal entitlement to AIR CIC Officers working outside the ACSTC.  In our supply course the Air CIC scale is limited to D01103, and it does not indicate any entitlement for the CADPAT clothing merged or not.  Of course there are always moinor errors or omissions that are unintentional.

Note 2 (g)
"This scale is applicable to all Army CIC personnel. Issues are to be made within the limits of sub-categories D01301AA, AB and AC (less CTS items) and only for items which are actually needed by the
individual for the performance of his duties. This scale is also applicable to Navy and Air CIC personnel selected to participate at a Army Cadet Summer Training Center when authorized by the Commanding
Officer of the Training Center. Items will be withdrawn on completion of Summer Training Centre duties.

Of course my reference could be old as well, and things can change.  Just trying to help.

Interestingy, they now appear to have indeed merged the ResF CIC of the Air and Navy into the land ops scale as you have laid out above and the Air CIC certainly seems to be entitled to cadpat only when employed within an ARMY CSTC as has always been the case for Naval CIC types.

MORE interesting than that however is the bracketed comment, which is in total condradiction to the "entitled while at ARMY CSTC" comment. This comment here:

within the limits of sub-categories D01301AA, AB and AC (less CTS items)

effectively states that there is NO entitlement to cadpat for ANY CIC personnel (even Land!!--employed in a CSTC or NOT) because cadpat is A CTS item.

So, when this scale was merged ... errors were made and the new wording contradicts itself from one sentence to the next.

I'm going to contact the scale OPI to point it out and ask for "clear language" input onto the scale.

Interestingly also, the D01103 (vice the D01301 Land Ops scale), which is the Air Force Basic clothing Reg & Res Force Scale has had it's "AD" section removed saved for a duffle bag. AD was the "Base Dress entitlement" section. Right now, I can't find a single scale on the system showing any entitlement to any cadpat for any Air DEU types -- Reg, PRes, or Res CIC. So -- the Air Force is indeed in the midst of sorting through their scales.

I'll keep an eye on them and will update here accordingly.

 

[Froger]

So what is the scale of Clothing for the Land CIC officers then. As I have seen some with all the kit issued to them. As we are not able to look at the issue list that you are talking about.

 

[armyvern]

So what is the scale of Clothing for the Land CIC officers then. As I have seen some with all the kit issued to them. As we are not able to look at the issue list that you are talking about.

D01301 ... Land Reg & Res and it's associated scale scetions. "AA", "AB", "AC", etc. It needs to be read in conjunction with the scale "Notes", some of which rule out it's issue to CIC officers, or restrict the qty that CIC officers are entitled to.

If you have DIN access, you can access Scales for clothing, checklists, CFFET checklist & scales, MASTs, etc. Do a search for: "CFSS Web Query Tool", it should come up as your first hit. I believe the instructions for how to enter and use are provided at that link.

Vern

 

[Froger]

No DIN access at all. I'm with a small town unit.

 

[armyvern]

No DIN access at all. I'm with a small town unit.

PM inbound.

 

[Froger]

Thank you for the information.

 

[Sloaner]

You should be able to find everything you are looking for on scales for the CIC in the CIC learning Centre on CadetNet.

 

[Froger]

I did my RSO Small Bore a few weeks back, on an outdoor range. The Air CIC officers that did not have there own personal combats (OD) where out there in 3C.

 

[Sloaner]

That is consistent with the Orders of dress for the course according to thje matrix I've seen from RCIS.  You do not need combats to administer a range.

 

[Froger]

I would not want to be the one out there in my 3C on any out door active. If they have field ex's in the program then, the right colthing and equipment should be supply to do the job at hand.

 

[D. Nicholson]

Disregard... PM'd instead

 

[opie_cic]

I just finished up my BOQ in Borden.  I'm Air.  We were in work dress, which now consist of dress pants and short sleeved shirt. (though we transitioned into the sweater as well, since it went over the time change).  The poly pants formally worn with work dress are no longer issued.  In the field, we wore CADPAT if we had it, and if not it was grey overalls. 

I have CADPAT, it was issued to me here in North Bay.  I've got all the gear CIC is entitled to have.  However I've only recently moved here, and my experience is not every supply is the same.  North Bay is totally cool, and its an Air Force town, so that may have played a roll.  However, my ASU used to be London.  In my expeience, as well as that of others, they are not big fans of CIC, and they have no problem showing it.

Cadets themselves are forbidden from wearing CADPAT.  They are not members of the CF, and cannot wear something that looks like it.  Cadets are permitted to wear OD's, since it is no longer the uniform of the CF.

CIC Officers, are members of the CF.  We are entitled.