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Air Defence- 5 Years[and counting] of A.D. Thoughts

The LDSH (RC) CO thinks that he will get all of the MMEVs, the RCA has been around longer than him(time to get his head into the fresh air)

Really who cares who has been around longer?  I rather see the weapon system go to the corps that has the most experience in fielding vehicles that go into the fray.  I'm not knocking the RCA here but the armoured has years of corporate knowledge build up on the use of vehicles in combat situations.  I know the 109 could be used in the direct role, but really is that even comparable to the experience the armoured have?
 
the armoured has years of corporate knowledge build up on the use of vehicles in combat situations.

Hmm, where has the armd accumulated this coporate knowledge from combat situations in the last 50 years?  ???
 
lets face it the field Arty is hanging on for dear life getting rid of the m109s taking back the morters trying to fly RPVs and screwing it all up... welcome to MSE or Traffic Tech guys......

Not a great way to introduce yourself to this forum.  Don't kid yourself, the entire military is refocusing itself towards an infantry centric capability.  The field and air artillery are both undergoing changes to reflect political reality, resource constraints, and probable missions.  Canada will no longer be at the spear type of a "drive on Baghdad" style offensive operation, however, we can still provide a combat credible force for flank and rear security operations.  With this in mind, it reflects the current direction of no armour, no self propelled artillery, etc, etc. 
 
Furthermore, the MMEV is seen as a long-range missile platform, fired from static positions. Nothing I've seen suggests that MMEV will manoeuvre in the face of the enemy. It will strike its targets from more than 6 km away - something the armd corps has no experience with.

The MMEV will also have the capability to fire its missiles at armd targets indirectly (ie., have someone "spotting" the target). Does that sound like more of an armd or arty idea?

And finally, whoever manages the MMEV will still have to look after air defence - and that includes airspace coordination, establishment of ASCCs, airspace control and management. How much institutional experience does the armd corps have in that? Moreover, will it be easier to train AD gunners to fight the anti-tank fight (something they've already had exposure to) or to train black hats to fight the air battle (soething they have NEVER done)?

 
Splitting hairs I see gunner. :) Sorry the training to use vehicles in a more intimate setting with enemy..... better?

Furthermore, the MMEV is seen as a long-range missile platform, fired from static positions. Nothing I've seen suggests that MMEV will manoeuvre in the face of the enemy. It will strike its targets from more than 6 km away - something the armd corps has no experience with.

The MMEV will also have the capability to fire its missiles at armd targets indirectly (ie., have someone "spotting" the target). Does that sound like more of an armd

When put that way it makes more sense than the original post I replied too.  I still see the MMEV doing some "manoeuvre in the face of the enemy" but as a whole the way you present it makes sense to me. 

 
 
Well said Guardian, well said.....

as for the black hats well...... i could use 1 for a driver.......now we just got to find a place for about 500 more :skull: :cdn: :skull:
 
All that i am doing is standing up for my trade im tired of meeting a black hatter who tells me i will be a strat with in a year....
or to be told that i will be back with the 021 in the next year or so..... we split from them caus the trade could not do both jobs with any experience in the AD enviroment........(with the gunners being moved from fd to ad and back).

As for "Not a great way to introduce yourself to this forum"  after 15 years and still going I will speak my mind.
P.S: got people talking to
:skull: :cdn: :skull:
 
Speaking your mind is all fine and dandy and we look forward to your input here but putting down other trades is not a good first step being new here, all it causes are flames and trolling and thats all they do then action is taken against those people who perpetuate such activities. Clear?
 
All that i am doing is standing up for my trade im tired of meeting a black hatter who tells me i will be a strat with in a year....
or to be told that i will be back with the 021 in the next year or so..... we split from them caus the trade could not do both jobs with any experience in the AD enviroment........(with the gunners being moved from fd to ad and back). 

If you want to discuss aspects of AD or Fd Arty, use communication and reason vice useless slagging of other arms.  We usually have to monitor the cadets and young soldiers, not sr NCOs.  I have a hard time believing that you act this way in person, so don't do it in this forum.


As for "Not a great way to introduce yourself to this forum"  after 15 years and still going I will speak my mind.
P.S: got people talking to

Well, as the moderator for this forum, I am telling you to suck back and reload and speak with a reasoned mind. 
 
this is what i fight for ......

Schedule B

Constitution Act, 1982 (79)
Enacted as Schedule B to the Canada Act 1982 (U.K.) 1982, c. 11, which came into force on April 17, 1982


PART I

Canadian charter of rights and freedoms
   
Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:

Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms

Fundamental Freedoms

  1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.   

  2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
a) freedom of conscience and religion;
b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
d) freedom of association.


http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/#garantie

and you fight for what???


 
Not sure what your intent was in posting portions of the constitution to the forum and trying to turn this into a freedom of speech issue.  You are confusing your rights as a citizen of this country with your rights to belong to a private website.  You are voluntarily here as a guest of the website owner and you must subscribe to his rules:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/3673.0.html

The conduct guidelines are very straight forward and encourage discussion of all topics. 

I have never had to issue a warning but I am telling you right now that you are being disruptive in the artillery forum and trying to incite (or troll) arguments on trivial issues.  If you continue this behaviour, you will dealt with (up to and including being banned for life). 
 
The LdSH are indeed getting the ADATS.  And all of the TUA.  And all of the MGS.  The three vehicle "layered" approach has to be commanded in one unit, doesn't it?  The LdSH are going to be the one and only anti-armour unit in the Forces.  This has been announced already.

The ADATS will be manned by artillery, and the TUA will be manned by Infantry, although they are talking a merge sometime down the road.....who knows, a new Corps to replace the Armour Corps?
 
022  AD Gunner said:
3. The LDSH (RC) CO thinks that he will get all of the MMEVs, the RCA has been around longer than him(time to get his head into the fresh air)
Wrong.  The CO of the Strats knows this because the Chief of the Land Staff has directd this to be so.
 
022  AD Gunner said:
If we had any balls we would cut all our ties to the wast of time FD Arty be for they drag us down.

Go ahead guys pull that string its got a fat pill on the end of it....or walk around with a Tims all day long.......

I am attached to FD Arty (RAA) and I dont understand how you can 'beat up' your own Corps like you are.

FD and MDM Arty were there along time before LAA anyways.

I have been nothing but cained hard when we go bush, and true good professional soldiering from Puckapunyal to Shoalwter Bay, and I am proud to serve with my Regiment, where the work hard - play hard principle is still in effect.

TST always plays the game, and recently was awarded the CO's Commendation. Thats   not a common thing, especially for RAEME.

Our lads are insanely fit, but even us older 'cuddley' ones ( I am 182cm/100kg) pass our CFAs and BFAs no worries. Personally I would deploy worldwide with confidence with the RAA anytime.

You're all in the same boat wearing the same honoured cap badge, and with this day in age, you gotta stand shoulder to shoulder, as there are plenty out there who would love to see the RCA Corps go the way of the CAR.

Remember that.

Ubique!

Wes

 
022  AD Gunner said:
this is what i fight for ......

Schedule B

Constitution Act, 1982 (79)
Enacted as Schedule B to the Canada Act 1982 (U.K.) 1982, c. 11, which came into force on April 17, 1982


PART I

Canadian charter of rights and freedoms
   
Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:

Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms

Fundamental Freedoms

  1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.    

  2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
a) freedom of conscience and religion;
b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
d) freedom of association.


http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/#garantie

and you fight for what???


  :warstory: Hummm...... I think what its all about is your mates, and the bloke next to you, as I believe all that patriotic stuff about queen, country, and the consitiution, goes right out the window on a 'two way' rifle range.

I think your a little bit over the top, pal   ::) .

My two bob.
;D

Wes
 
Ad gunner, i think u have no idea what our trade is fully capable of and I think u should look it up and really think for a moment.  As for the "fat" guys in gagetown....... yea they maybe but have U ever been out with a real regiment of FD ARTY?  Cause I'm a mortorman and my ruck weighs more than me and i dont have the nice warm adats to drive me everywhere cause we AINT WEAK we walk there most of time.  Most of my bty is now para qualified (TY 3VP!!!!) and probably kick urs till next month, so before commenting on things like that I think you should research outside the school and see what real life is.  And Kid lol grow up like really.

C Bty Gunner
1RCHA

 
022 AD GUNNER said:
My personal view is that the regiments as a whole are a thing of the past.
The Regimental Combat Team is the way to go, but the units across the board don't want any thing that might get rid of their history


Hmmm if you understood anything about unit pride you would not dismiss other regiments so casually as you do.
 
It's alright C Bty Gunner... most of his Regt comes in to work when they feel like it and could muster about a Bty on a good day. They don't fire live ammunition, at least not to any extent required. And it is true they may have a role in the future.... but it won't have anything to do with the AIR DEFENCE as we have come to know it. Oh, and what he forgot to tell you about the Fd guys in the School is that they are on average 15 years older than the AD gunners and they spend about 180-200 days a year in the field... fit PT into that (those who want too will, those who don't won't)....And know he probably has never seen a Fd Regt, unless he joined before the split.

No offence to Kitch and the other Ad guys on here, but some things that AD Gunner said had to be clarified.

More on to the thread, I like the fact that the AD will take over Airspace deconfliction, excellent job an one they have had experience in.
 
Air Defence Gnr from Gagetown you are the reason why our trade takes a beating and are the reason why people have preconceived notions about Air Defence.  It is not a question about rights and freedoms, but about respect for other people in the form. Put your heels together, look in the mirror and jack yourself.

As for the stuff about AD/FD Arty at the school, never been there, but the AD Gnr's spend as much time in the field as FD Gnrs.  The run the FARS, AMMO, Mt, QM positions which are all valuable components of an effective unit. What are they going to do we all move to Edmonton?? The FD arty currently benefits from these PY's, much more then the Air Defence community.

  As for the comment about the ASCC function, I agree that it is a role that the Air Defence is capable of undertaking and the experience exists. The Air Defence System Integrator (ADSI) is an excellent piece of kit that has not been exploited.

The ADATS has been misunderstood since its inception. I agree that may air defenders lack the knowledge of life in a Bde.  Although we (4 AD Regt) have Regt esprit des corps and many facets of Regt'l life similar to those in the field Regiments, we lack the Bde experience.  This what we require. With the impending move sometime in the next decade to Western area we will gain this experience, unfortunately two other Bde's will not have an air defence presence.  Even if we are mbrs of the LDSH, we will still retain the capability and knowledge base for any Air Defence requirements.

Yes the ADATS is comfy and warm, breaks alot, has a PPU that lights it up like a Xmas tree, but its the best piece of kit in the inventory. The Javelin is useless, the Gun/Skyguard obsolete.  People must realize that we have never received a dedicated mid life upgrade. Prior to Sept 11th the kit was slated for the scrap heap and spare parts contracts we shut off. Now we are paying the price for a lack of parts and the political decision to make the Air Defence a total force units. Is this kit (MMEV..Lav marries an ADATS configuration) what we should base an army on for the next twenty years? I don't know, but can't wait to find out.
 
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