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Air Defense Role for 2007

Kanne

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I'm currently considering this trade, and I'm looking for a little insight.  From what I understand, the Air Defense role has been changed quite a bit over the last few years.  Is the information that can be found on the DOD's website still correct and current?  Also, once an individual has made it to their unit, what kind of daily routine can be expected while on deployment and at home?

Thanks for any help,

Cheers
 
Ok I'll help a little bit here, hoping theres a bird gunner out there to help with the trade specific stuff but. First there is no DoD (thats the American Department of Defence) We have the Department of National Defence charged with suporting by way of infrastructure and services the Canadian Armed forces charged with the defence of Canada. As for trade stuff, I can give you the basics.  BMQ 14 Weeks at wonderful CFLRS ST Jean (time may be different now) then off to CTC Gagetown (Infantry School) and Soldier Qualification (or RCA Battle School Shilo) from there most definately The Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery School at CTC Gagetown for your TQ3, where upon successful completion you will lose your conrflake for a gunners cap brass. From there its of to 4 AD Regt Moncton and the rest someone else will have to help out. (The beginning part was simply to convert your thinking to Canadian terms)
 
4 AD Regt is also in Gagetown with 128 AD Bty.  Suggest you take a long look at this thread:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/22522.0.html

Any specific questions PM me.
 
kincanucks

my guess is you are a bird gunner (keeping in the back of my mind there is "no" distinction between the trades for officers) where does the decision come in to play as to whether a jr offr will go mud, or bird gunner, and once set in a stream do you cross train at all or take common courses past phase III? Cheers.
 
The decision is made on DP 1.1 and that is when they say how many positions are available for AD.  Then the split is made and each officer heads off on their respective DP 1.2s.  After that there is very little cross training except for the Arty Ops Crse or a Common IG crse (usually run as part of the AD IG crse and not the Fd IG crse) and of course if an AD officer is lucky enough to get on a FOO or FAC crse.
 
The Air Defense Role for 2007 has moved away from "traditional" AD, the bread and butter for at least half the Reg't is Airspace Coordination. 119 Bty in Moncton is focused on training and conducting this role in theatre. There have been ASCC's Airspace Coordination Centres in the sandbox since 2001, both in Kabul and now in Kandahar.

The purpose of the ASCC is to coordinate the multiple users (CAS, Avn, UAVs, Artillery - yadda yadda) and to make sure no two assets occupy the exact same airspace at the exact same time.

That's it in a nutshell.

 
just food for thought, the 1st roto battery commander (1st deploy with the M777) is also an Air Defence Instructor of Gunnery, and is now the Chief Instructor of Gunnery. So there is some possibility of cross over.
The main "act" element (or shooter) in the air defence is the ADATS, but this may change in the near future. During a recent visit by the the CLS, he mentioned that he did not want to see Canadian troops in an Ivory Coat type of situation that occurred in 2004. I think he was referring to the French UN forces that got bombed by Ivory Coast gov't air craft, and were unable to defend themselves, albeit a few days later the "defensive" response came in the form of French Air attacks that all but wiped out the Ivory Coast air force; this response was criticized as being an excessive over reaction (not proportional) to the threat. The implied message is the French should have had some ground based air defence so they had the capability to carry out their right to self defense and nothing more. All that to say the things may change in the next few years with regards to their "act" element

One other "stream" that is opening up is the one for surveillance and target acquisition, this one right now is only offered after the officer has spent some time in a unit already, but this may change as well as the capability develops; the split may occur right after DP1.2 or possibly even after 1.1.

 
Petard said:
One other "stream" that is opening up is the one for surveillance and target acquisition, this one right now is only offered after the officer has spent some time in a unit already, but this may change as well as the capability develops; the split may occur right after DP1.2 or possibly even after 1.1.


I find this an interesting comment.  ISTAR is not really Trade specific.  It encompasses many Trades and skill sets.  Is this train of thought a contemplated act on the part of the Artillery Branch to create a niche or Empire and defeat any hopes of making ISTAR an effective endeavor that could be an efficient tool?  As is it is hamstrung by the lack of cooperation between the various 'sources' and their unwillingness to cooperate. 

Or have I completely misinterpreted your reference to Surveillance and Target Acquisition?
 
STA in the 'Artillery' sense refers directly to a three pronged approach:

1) Mini UAVs (MUAVs) - the Elbit Systems SkyLark is deployed to the Sandbox right now
2) Soundranging - The UK HALO (Hostile Artillery Locating) Digital System is theatre now
3) CRAM - Counter Rocket and Mortar - The have a Lightweight Counter Mortar Radar - manpack Radar system deployed there as well.

2 and 3 relate in an Artillery sense to a 'Counter Battery' capability.

The MUAVs are an excellent Coy level tool in the pocket of the FOO and the Coy Comd.

It is not an attempt to build an empire, but another tool in the toolbox...But as Gunners we naturally do it better...

Just kidding.

Hope this clarifies this....
 
George Wallace said:
...  Is this train of thought a contemplated act on the part of the Artillery Branch to create a niche or Empire and defeat any hopes of making ISTAR an effective endeavor that could be an efficient tool?  As is it is hamstrung by the lack of cooperation between the various 'sources' and their unwillingness to cooperate. 

Or have I completely misinterpreted your reference to Surveillance and Target Acquisition?

I don't believe the Artillery world has any designs of empire building, as for niche building, I suppose to some degree that is true, but not by design. The STA capabilities that the Artillery are currently manning is either the result of past history with it, or no one else has the manpower or time right now to take it over. In the future locating radar might merge into the air defence realm should medium range radar, with an air space coordination component to it, come on line (hopefully in the near future ie within 10 years). As for the other capabilities there are decades of experience within the Artillery on them.

Sound ranging goes back to WW1, UAV's back to about the 70's, and a specific type of radar also was developed for the same reasons as Scotty alluded to; as a capability for counter battery use. This capability withered somewhat through the 80's and 90's, the skill set being maintained somewhat in the Artillery largely by select IG's and AIG's attending "Locating" courses in the UK. I'm not aware of any other trade doing this.

The ISTAR concept has always been around, somewhat, but as it became more defined the capability requirements looked a lot like what the Artillery had already been looking after, or trying to maintain some kind of skill sets for, albeit for the more specific counter-bty role. So I would say more by default the task went to the Artillery to look after those specific capabilities. As for the coordination aspect it certainly does not belong to the Artillery alone, but the task of coordinating fire support resources has been for some time the role of Arty FSCC and ASCC's within the construct of the Bde FSCC.

Only recently have we seen any real commitment to acquire modern technology (HALO, MUAV and LCMR) to actually put something in the hands of soldiers, it just so happens they went into Artillery ones simply because that's were the skill set resided. In the case of UAV's the original intent was the traditional recce units within the Armoured and the Infantry were to look after the mini, which only made sense, but for manpower and training time reasons this has happened yet, and might not because of technical reasons.
Skylark, the MUAV capability the CF has right now, is operated by the Artillery because they had experience with UAV's, and the demand for this capability in theatre was urgent to the point it was more sensible to leave the capability in the hands of where there was at least some experience, rather than delay deployment while training was delivered to where there was none. I'm not so sure the other trades wanted the training bill that went with along with it anyway. This type of aircraft does have some limitations, so it might be replaced by a somewhat larger UAV, a Small UAV as opposed to a Mini, so that this capability has a higher availability rate. This means the UAV capability will probably remain within the Artillery.
Gunners are also still providing the launch and recovery teams for the TUAV for who knows what reason since Spewer is controlled by the airforce, which leads to one of the consequences of these ISTAR demands is that it is playing hell on career management.

That's quite a lengthy explanation I suppose, and it could be more twisted than I intended, but hopefully that does give a better idea of why those specific STA capabilities are managed by the Artillery right now.
 
When I went in and had a chat with a birdgunner at the CFRC he told me that the main things were obviously the ADATS, driving the support vehicles for the ADATS, ASCC, as well working with the UAV's overseas. If I remember correctly I heard the Javelins went over to the Navy and there were some birdgunners working with them there? The DND's website still lists the twin 35mm's and the Javelin MANPAD which if you go to the equipment section you will see are labelled NOT IN SERVICE! Personally I dont know if Canada ever looked into the LeFlaSys or ASRAD but if I could call the shots I'd bring it to the table since it uses the RBS-70 (or newer BOLIDE) which also is used alone in a MANPAD, Therefore one missle for two different weapons. Also on Rheinmetal (sp) Defences page they show it mounted on a HUMVEE (which I think is what the Greek are using) so my question would it be able to go on a G-Wagen? They also show it mounted on an M-113 which is another platform were using and a Mercedes Benz truck....a platform were soon to be using. The Germans currently use it and call it the Ozelot (they mount it on the Wiesel) ...except they have about 4 different vehicles in their system. However Saab who has partnered with Rhienmetal even offer a weapons trainer. We would be able to get a new vehicle mounted system and a MANPAD that used the same missle. Sounds pretty cost effective to me. Anyone have any thoughts? 
 
Rayman said:
When I went in and had a chat with a birdgunner at the CFRC he told me that the main things were obviously the ADATS, driving the support vehicles for the ADATS, ASCC, as well working with the UAV's overseas. If I remember correctly I heard the Javelins went over to the Navy and there were some birdgunners working with them there? The DND's website still lists the twin 35mm's and the Javelin MANPAD which if you go to the equipment section you will see are labelled NOT IN SERVICE! Personally I dont know if Canada ever looked into the LeFlaSys or ASRAD but if I could call the shots I'd bring it to the table since it uses the RBS-70 (or newer BOLIDE) which also is used alone in a MANPAD, Therefore one missle for two different weapons. Also on Rheinmetal (sp) Defences page they show it mounted on a HUMVEE (which I think is what the Greek are using) so my question would it be able to go on a G-Wagen? They also show it mounted on an M-113 which is another platform were using and a Mercedes Benz truck....a platform were soon to be using. The Germans currently use it and call it the Ozelot (they mount it on the Wiesel) ...except they have about 4 different vehicles in their system. However Saab who has partnered with Rhienmetal even offer a weapons trainer. We would be able to get a new vehicle mounted system and a MANPAD that used the same missle. Sounds pretty cost effective to me. Anyone have any thoughts? 

First Javelin is not an Anti Air weapon.
Second LeFlaSys is ASRAD mounted on the Wiesel2.
Third RBS-70 can be used, but we and IIRC the Greeks use Stinger.
Fourthly ASRAD can be mounted on the M B 290 GD. That´s the version the Greeks use. (Pic see attachment.)

Regards,
ironduke57
 
ironduke57 said:
First Javelin is not an Anti Air weapon.

In Canada we have -or had- a shoulder launched SAM called Javelin....

Thus, yes, Javelin is an anti-air weapon.........just not the javelin anti-tank missle you are thinking of.

http://www.answers.com/topic/javelin-surface-to-air-missile?cat=technology
 
CDN Aviator said:
In Canada we have -or had- a shoulder launched SAM called Javelin....

Thus, yes, Javelin is an anti-air weapon.........just not the javelin anti-tank missle you are thinking of.

http://www.answers.com/topic/javelin-surface-to-air-missile?cat=technology

Ups. Sorry my fault. It´s really annoying when there are different thing´s with the same name.

Regards,
ironduke57
 
I can see a future for the use of AD to locate and destroy enemy UAV's. Considering how cheap UAV can be now and that Hezbollah has already used them, the need to control the airspace over the battlefield will require somesort of light weapon. I do suspect that Lasers will likely become the norm in dealing with these UAV's in the next 20 years. However the problem will be locating and tracking them. In the meantime some sort of 20-35mm rapid firing gun will be required.
 
There is a current anti-armour weapon called the Javelin; there was also a MANPAD named the Javelin.  Two different systems, same name.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/javelin/index.html - Anti-armour

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/javelin.htm - Air Defence

 
I saw the picture of the AA version and the first thing that came to my mind was "Blowpipe" then I read it was a "evolution" of it.

I realize that the blowpipe was a very early, perhaps even first generation of MANPADS as was not that great. Was there ever any recorded combat kills with a blowpipe? I know they were used in the Falklands.
 
Wikipeida claims 9 of 100 Blowpipes hit in the Falklands, leading to the development of the Javelin.
 
Colin P said:
I can see a future for the use of AD to locate and destroy enemy UAV's. Considering how cheap UAV can be now and that Hezbollah has already used them, the need to control the airspace over the battlefield will require somesort of light weapon. I do suspect that Lasers will likely become the norm in dealing with these UAV's in the next 20 years. However the problem will be locating and tracking them. In the meantime some sort of 20-35mm rapid firing gun will be required.

Not only that I remember since I was living in Toronto at the whole time of September 11th, and the days after (anyone remember that kid who was a talliban supporter who flew a Cessna into a condominium a day or so later?) till about 3 years past I remember a lot of people being paranoid not only of attacks on the subways, but attacks on major Toronto landmarks (like the CN Tower, Skydome, ACC, and the millions others). Since the government wanted to put more disaster relief equipment right in the urban areas would it also make sense, from a security point of view, to have some sort of air defence other than relying soley on our CF-18s?  As well Ironduke, thanks for some of the clarification there. Nice pic of the G-wagon. Now does anyone want to mail that picture to the government? :D
 
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