Airborne Warning not Aircrew?

[Good2Golf]

I find the fact that we even draw a distinction between one set of air force personnel and another rather sad....

???

You mean like the distinctions between all the different MOSIDs in the Air Force?

 

[Aerospaced_out]

???

You mean like the distinctions between all the different MOSIDs in the Air Force?

No, those kind of distinctions are important as they engender training requirements and standards of expertise to be achieved/maintained. What do various wings show? Nothing other than you belong in an exclusive club. A club that offers nothing to its membership other than that exclusivity.

Being proud of your profession is good. Wanting people to know your affiliation in that profession is understandable, but creating a system that divides up the overall team and says only some of you get the full membership (aircrew wings) and the rest get half is as I said... sad!

If anyone tries to deny aircrew wings can and often do represent elitist exclusivity is deluding themself. The fact we are even here discussing this is proof of that.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Aerospaced Out,

I've got news for you- the entire CF is predicated on a system of "exclusive elitism".  From ranks, to badges to unform colour- it all serves to distinguish, and yes, divide.

 

[Journeyman]

.... creating a system that divides up the overall team and says only some of you get the full membership (aircrew wings) and the rest get half is as I said... sad!

Oh look, a measuring contest, with those lacking the "full size" feeling ....sad.      ;D



For disclosure, I've read William Henry's In Defense of Elitism -- it just reaffirmed that my lacking a sense of inadequacy is OK.   

 

[medicineman]

I'd say there are things out there more exclusive than aircrew wings dude...I work with/for some of them (Clearance Divers).  I don't get ragged on for the vertical dolphins I wear any less than my vertical wings for being back end medevac aircrew.  Those wings (or dolphins) indicate a level of responsibillity, not just look cool factor.  If you want to take on that responsibility, take the training.  If you don't, then make do with that lot in life that you've got and get plastic surgery and or therapy if you feel inadequate.

MM

 

[Journeyman]

If you don't, then make do with that lot in life that you've got and get plastic surgery and or therapy if you feel inadequate.

I was going include a link to penis enlargement, but even I thought that would be crossing the line.  ;D

 

[Good2Golf]

...Being proud of your profession is good. Wanting people to know your affiliation in that profession is understandable, but creating a system that divides up the overall team and says only some of you get the full membership (aircrew wings) and the rest get half is as I said... sad!

Would you consider that some of those with wings, any kind of wings (occupation, trade, qualification, etc...) wear them because they would like to comlpy with the CFP-265 dress regulations, and don't really put too much thought or consideration into what kind of accoutrements they have on their uniforms?

...If anyone tries to deny aircrew wings can and often do represent elitist exclusivity is deluding themself. The fact we are even here discussing this is proof of that.

Can you do the same things as someone with a particular qualification, for which the CF requires them to wear a particular insignia on their uniform?  If not, then I guess you're right about the exclusivity of those qualifications.  I'm not sure that your charges of elitism are warranted, however. 

Let me suggest that 'elitism' is an issue of perspective, and usually driven by those who are not in a particular group.  By way of example, I don't see qualified individuals flaunting or pointing out the "black dinner plate with knife" insignia to others...they're pretty secure in their qualification's abilities that they don't feel the need to validate themselves to non-qualified individuals.  Just sayin'...

Cheers
G2G

 

[Cajun]

Putting aside the penis measuring remarks for a moment, I think there are some interesting points being made here...

On one hand, I think SeaKingTacco is right, the argument can certainly be made that  badges for training or deeds accomplished do serve to give credit where credit is due (otherwise medals wouldn't exist, let alone aircrew wings). I'm guessing these might also help to foster a sense of morale and pride amongst those who share the insignia, not to metion the operational requirement for team members and their respective responsibilities to be easily identifiable in the often less-than-ideal conditions armed forces are expected to operate and thrive in. I think the necessity of division by rank should be fairly obvious to most on these boards.

On the other hand, Aerospaced_Out does make a valid point. When anything serves to divide a team of individuals expected to act in synchronicity, often in very serious or stressful, even life or death situations, I don't think that can ever be a positive thing. It's fairly obvious from the amount of discussion this topic has generated, that there is some division on the matter. It is also interesting to note that nearly all individuals who seem to have taken issue with the original idea, or who have at least cared enough to weigh-in on the conversation, are those already in possession of said wings; an AESOp, a Pilot, and a Nav (and someone wearing jump wings, judging from the avatar), which, like it or not, does possibly speak to that perceived sense of elitism. You might even say based on that premise, protectionism (which I would argue is even more harmful to an organization that is so heavily team-oriented). I'm not trying to say 'strip all the pilots of their wings!!', I'm just suggesting maybe this discussion has less to do with a sense of inadequacy than some 'winged' members might like to believe (no negative connotation intended there).

One question that hasn't been asked yet is: how do other countries do it? I fully understand that the CF has it's own customs and traditions to uphold, but given the nature of the Airborne Warning/AEC occupation, I think it's a question that has some validity. Airborne Warning crews operate almost exclusively with NATO and allied air forces, outside of Canada. They are some of the most visible ambassadors to Canada the CAF has. What do the USAF/RAF/RAAF/Other Air Battle Managers also working on E-3's wear?

 

[Journeyman]

On the other hand, Aerospaced_Out does make a valid point. When anything serves to divide a team of individuals expected to act in synchronicity, often in very serious or stressful, even life or death situations, I don't think that can ever be a positive thing.

Seriously?
No really. You honestly believe that a life or death situation (and I can think of several aircraft-related scenarios) will be exacerbated by the badges worn on flying suits?!

.....are those already in possession of said wings; an AESOp, a Pilot, and a Nav (and someone wearing jump wings, judging from the avatar), which, like it or not, does possibly speak to that perceived sense of elitism.

As noted in my profile, I have "several qualification badges" -- slightly more specific, while retaining anonymity, I have been awarded* Aircrew (full-wing), Parachutist, and Dive badges, including foreign freefall and static-line jump wings and dive badges from three continents. At the end of the day, they're just fucking badges (although my Mess Kit looks pretty awesome    )

To be honest, I seldom think of elitism, believing that implies an exclusive club actively barring others' entry.

Perhaps it would be better to think in terms of "if you really, really feel you'd be a better person by having some badge, then get out there and qualify for it, rather than coming onto an anonymous forum and whining about how people with  'elitist and divisive badges' make you feel....sad  -- so sad, that those other people, and the Dress Regs, should change."

Mind you, I have, on this site, been referred to as "condescending," but I assure you that resulted more from the poor quality of thought put into some posts [not referring to this thread] rather than any elitist feelings based on my 'I love me' wall.  ;D



* "Awarded," as in "earned" -- a term unpopular with social engineering types who believe we're all the same and that any sense of elitism, or personal pride in accomplishment, is evil. Sorry, but while our society seems increasingly determined to hobble ability to spare the feelings of under-achievers, I've never been a fan of striving for the lowest-common denominator.

[/rant]

 

[211RadOp]

Rifleman62:

I should not have asked the question, thought the answer was obvious, but it was not.

I don't understand all the opposition to my post that there are two Army Sig Ops flying as crewman in USAF AWACS.

Anyway, I know the Sig Op very well, and have been to the USAF base, seen the aircraft.

P.S. the USN operates E -6Bs from Tinker also.

The positions for both members (one of whom I do know) require OSS AEVT (Air Operations Survival - Sea ).  To me, that would indicate that both are in a flying position.  Having not talked to the one I know since he has left Kingston, I am unsure if he does fly or not, nor what job he does aboard the AC.

 

[Cajun]

Yep good points.

Anyone know what our allies do?

 

[aesop081]

Yep good points.

Anyone know what our allies do?

Does it matter ?

Every other air arm in the world that i have worked with says "what do you do ?". My full-wings dont seem to give it away either so this "what do other countries do" argument is a non-issue.

And before anyone puts me in the "elitist" category, i already said on here that i didnt care what AWACS guys wore, it doesnt affect me. I fly because i love flying, not because of bling. I would do this job for free, wearing a blank flightsuit if thats what the orders said.

On the other hand, Aerospaced_Out does make a valid point. When anything serves to divide a team of individuals expected to act in synchronicity, often in very serious or stressful, even life or death situations, I don't think that can ever be a positive thing.

An Aurora crew wears 4 different kinds of wings yet me manage to do just fine at 300 feet chasing subs in storms. Do you honestly think that a different badge somehow crushes the cohesion of an AWACS crew to the point where lives are at risk ?

WOW

 

[once a gunner]

To be quite honest I don't know what others do....as we hardly ever see each other in our Dress uniforms,  but I would say it's hard to really pay attention to what others have on their  uniforms turks, greeks, germans, danish, dutch, norwigens, polish, hungry, spain, Brits, belgians, portuguese, ....you see way too many......I do know that Cdn's on AWACS wear their aircrew badges on flt suits in Tinker but not in Germany......I have air Crew wings.....I don't care that they aren't full streched wings like the Flight deck ppl........it's just the way it is....Mission Crew wear stubby wings and Flight Deck wears streched.....at the end of the day I don't think any of us care what our badges look like.  Mine shows I have a air crew specialty, ..Flight deck guys show their specialty is flying......IMO we are all aircrew.....the difference is front end or back end......Flight deck or mission crew...and  I agree our badges should look different.


After talking to some USAF guys today at the Sqn...there are some Army Sigs posted and flying with Tinker AWACS......Don't know why and don't care.....why there and not here?? who cares ..not me!lol

 

[Sapplicant]

...coming onto an anonymous forum and whining about how people with  'elitist and divisive badges' make you feel....sad.

 

[Cajun]

Good to hear from someone actually there doing the job. I guess in the end the only thing that matters is that the job gets done and done well. Great conversation though! More lively than there has been in a while I'd say.

 

[Danjanou]

Seriously?
No really. You honestly believe that a life or death situation (and I can think of several aircraft-related scenarios) will be exacerbated by the badges worn on flying suits?!

Hmm maybe he can get one of these to show how "Special he is."
http://www.awardmedals.com/allied-special-forces-medal-p-17842.html?cPath=21_33

 

[medicineman]

Yep good points.

Anyone know what our allies do?

Varies country to country - the USAF awards full wings and weird little badges and ribbons pretty much for being toilet trained and making you feel better about yourself (something I've noted in dealings with USAF pers; as well there is a thread somewhere hear about that), the RAF uses brevet wings (ie single wings attached to a designator); couldn't find anything on RAAF/RNZAF, but they likely fashion their stuff similarly to the Brits, as their rank badges pretty much are the same.  In the end though, who cares?  These badges are there to show what a person does or is qualified to do and what they are responsible for.

MM

 

[Blackadder1916]

Yep good points.

Anyone know what our allies do?

As CDN Aviator says "what does it matter", however it doesn't take a lot of research to find that information.  I'll give you a freebie and provide a link to the RAF dress instructions http://www.raf.mod.uk/organisation/uniforms.cfm and provide a couple of pages from that document.  As RCAF and CF badges have some historical connection to British forces badges it may be more appropriate than some other countries.  Note that only pilots get "wings" (even if you've had a Red Bull), others get "a wing".

The "Rear Aircrew Brevet" replaced in April 2003 separate aircrew brevets for Air Electronics Officer or Operator (AE), Air Engineer (E), Air Loadmaster (LM).  Those who qualified for the brevet before the change could continue wearing the old style badge that had the appropriate letters designating the type of badge.  The aircrew brevets are worn on the left breast; the other qualification badges (some which have equivalent Canadian aircrew badges) are worn on the upper right sleeve.

 

[Cajun]

Noted, thanks for that. I had looked for info on the RAAF as well and couldn't find it. 

I think at this point it's safe to sum up the general opinion on this topic as a resounding cry of "who cares!?!" ...to conclude this thread.

My sincerest apologies to any panties that got bunched up at any point throughout the conversation  ;D

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Thank little baby Jesus on a cracker that is over :

Milnet.ca Staff