Albertas Oil ,Candas Mad Cow

[Pencil Tech]

What, like Edmonton isn't full of giant pants and sideways ball hats too? What about all the LA-style drive-by shootings in Millwoods? The only difference is that the boom cars are pickup trucks.

 

[Pencil Tech]

Or MILCOTS!  ;D

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Sorry if that offended you Kat, but thats how it reads.......

And about the only difference between downtown Toronto and/or Emonton/ Calgary is the CN tower.

 

[Kat Stevens]

OKAY I WILL SAY THIS LOUDLY NOW SO THAT YOU ALL MAY GET MY POINT. GLASS HOUSES AND STONES, GET IT NOW? HOW CAN YOU SAY WESTERN CANADIAN CULTURE (WHATEVER THAT IS) IS BORROWED FROM COWBOY COUNTRY, WHILE NOT ACKNOWLEDGING THAT YOUR OWN IS HEAVILY BORROWED FROM DEEETROIT AND CHICAGO AND ALL THE OTHER LARGE URBAN AREAS THAT BORDER YOUR OWN.  THAT WAS MY ONE AND ONLY POINT.  I'M DONE WITH THIS, AS OBVIOUSLY I AM NOT TRANSMITTING CLEARLY, AND AM BECOMING FRUSTRATED AT THE MISINTERPRETATION OF MY POINT.  AND, IF TORONTO, EDMONTON, AND CALGARY ARE NO DIFFERENT, TAKE IT UP WITH G-A, NOT ME, AS IT WAS HIS INITIAL OBSERVATION, THAT I MERELY RESPONDED TO, AND GOT CALLED A RACIST FOR MY TROUBLE.

 

[Kirkhill]

Pencil Tech:

Kat's point wasn't that Edmonton doesn't pump out the bass as well.  It does. But you can actually find a country station up there as well. ;D

He was responding to Glorified Ape's assertion that Alberta culture was "borrowed", implying that it was for show and not legitimate.  Alberta's culture includes both baseball caps and chaps.  Both are equally legitimate.  It also happens to include a sector of society that enjoys riding horses in "pinks" while jumping fences. That too is legitimate.

Ontario has different influences and the same influences as does Quebec.  The outcome in each case is varied. None are illegitimate.

 

[TCBF]

"Sorry if that offended you Kat, but thats how it reads......"

- An interesting example of how insidious the liberalist distortion of our society has become, we now have white people calling other white people 'racist' merely because they disagree on a socio-political point of discussion.

- Note to all: a statement of fact or opinion regarding another culture/race/tribe/nationality is not necessarily racism merely for stating facts or opinions regarding individual behaviours and group statistics.

Tom  

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Kat,
Seen and I apologise. Going back to Apes post which in fact I only skimmed originally [and now that I've read it, skimming was the proper course of action ] put your post in a different light.
I reacted like it was a stand alone post- my error.

 

[Kat Stevens]

No blood, no foul... soooo, how 'bout them oilers?

 

[larry Strong]

RCR I presume, as your moral high ground shouldn't be watered down by exposure to our borrowed values and culture in the PPCLI.   Good luck with that...

Be nice now, some of us were RCR, after all it's the oldest line Regiment in the Reg Force, and am still proud of it, and also a die hard redneck.

 

[Old Ranger]

Do you Know why they call it Mad Cow?


Cause PMS was already taken.

With regards to Oil, I'm surprised no one has brought up the word "Treaty" and the financial implications.
I worked as a Medic in the Northern patch and saw first hand the frustrating problems.
I know there are some "Rough Neck" posters that could elaborate with clarity on this subject.

As an Ontarian, I met lots of nice Albertans, crazy drivers, but nice folk

 

[larry Strong]

Yes, well when you are gone 2 weeks, and you have a 6-8 hour run home with only seven days off.........need I say more, about our driving habits.

 

[TCBF]

Fort Mac to Innisfail?  Another set of tail lights zipping by like two tracer bullets in a dead heat.

Tom

 

[Glorified Ape]

"See how much the Toronto-hating populous of Ontario likes being saddled with the bills for all the municipal and provincial services that aren't economically feasible without the provincial income generated by Toronto. I'd wager Ontario starts sucking up equalization payments within 2 years if that happened.'

- A lot of those so-called services are corrupt commie psychobable money pits that serve no useful function other than to turn productive citizens into lifelong wards of the guvmint.  Toronto can take those services with her.  

Down with central Canadian colonialism!

;D

Tom

Roads are corrupt commie psychobabble? Hospitals?

The problem, Glorified Ape, is that many in your part of the country want a monolithic state with one set of laws applying across the country.  A federated, or confederated state, doesn't work that way.  The whole point of a Federation is to allow a PATCHWORK (Lord how that word has come to be detested) of laws across the country as individual groups of people accept that they are not like each other, they don't want to live their lives the same way but they do want to get along.  That is how you address the disparities in population and the differences in belief.  That is precisely why Canadian politicians, and everyone else for that matter, are urging a federated state for Iraq.

I agree entirely - even with an "asymmetrical" federalism to some extent. What you're describing also already exists - the provincial powers are a testament to that fact. If we're all going to be members of the same state, however, there's going to be areas that the federal government controls and influences - some by virtue of law and others by virtue of spending power. It seems, though, that people increasingly consider any area which affects the provinces to be the exclusive territory of the provincial governments. Provinces are constantly trying to extend their areas of control but still want the federal government to help pay the bills. Then when it comes time for policy decisions, the provinces want all the input.

The whole purpose of the Confederation exercise was to allow a degree of local autonomy.  That autonomy has been eroded and the imposition of central authority is having a corrosive effect on the residue of goodwill of those that find themselves subject to laws not in consort with their beliefs.

I believe the most important phrase there is "a degree". That degree is determined by what is and isn't designated a provincial power and, often, by who it is that's paying the bills. Healthcare is a provincial jurisdiction but since the feds pay a substantial amount of the costs, they have input on policy. The provinces agreed to this with the CHA but now it seems they want to have their cake and eat it too.

As to Alberta being tyrannized - I don't suppose it makes much difference to the person on whom a code of conduct is imposed if it is imposed by a raving lunatic like Saddam or a well-meaning democracy like America. Isn't that the essence of the argument against supporting the US in Iraq?  If you believe you understand why Iraqis don't want democracy imposed on them along with an American style constitution, why is it so difficult to accept that some folks out west might not be appreciative of well-meaning easterners imposing their views on them?

You're equating Iraq's situation to Alberta's?!?! They should be so lucky. There's been no invasion, no subjugation by foreign government, no imposition of laws arbitrarily. What "code of conduct" is being unduly forced on Alberta? It's a province, not a state, and as such is not entitled to complete autonomy. Yes, there are going to be areas where Alberta is subject to the federal government but that goes for every province. To say that the relationship is one characterized by tyranny solely because some Albertans feel they have less influence on the federal government than they should have is absurd. Everybody is subject to common rules which they find displeasing or inconvenient, but that's the nature of a union.

WRT voting with your feet - what I am saying is that people of like views will seek out places where they can associate with people of similar views.  The trade works both ways.  Conservatively inclined free-traders from the east gravitate to the west.  Liberally minded, socially conscious, supporters of big government and statist agendas gravitate towards the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal area.  Populations naturally divide over time.  That is an ongoing, unchangeable process as constant as the rise and fall of the tides and the come and go of the ice-ages.

I understand your point (though my last post addressing it may have been off the mark a bit) but I fail to see its relevance to the issue of the federal-provincial relationship vis a vis Alberta. I'm not saying it's irrelevant, just that I don't understand what you're getting at.

WRT colonialism - colonialism has nothing to do with contiguity or distance although if you want to consider that then Alberta is farther from Ontario than England's first colony, Ireland, was from her.  It has everything to do with exploitation, or in the words or some rabble rouser down south, "No taxation without representation".  Although we can't argue that we aren't represented we can argue that we are under-represented, over-taxed and unheard.

For Alberta to be a colony, it would have to have been colonized by a foreign people. Since Alberta did not exist until 1905 and was colonized, with the assistance of the federal government, prior to that point (and afterwards)  by "Canadians" (be they Ukrainian farmers or Scottish entrepreneurs), its people ARE the colonialists, not the colonized. The only people in Alberta with a legitimate claim to that particular brand of history would be the Natives. There were no Albertans prior to the arrival of the western settlers and even they were only Albertans after 1905.

While you're correct in saying that geographic distance from the colonizing country does not influence whether or not the country is a colony, the governmental and historical contiguity matters greatly and was the crux of my point. You cannot be under colonial rule if your "colony" is not a colony but a well established province within an autonomous 138 year old state. Colonialism is the maintenance of control, by a state, over foreign dependants. Alberta is not foreign, it is and always has been a constituent part of Canada. One might as well say that Edmonton is under the colonial rule of Alberta, or that Toronto's authority over Scarborough is "colonialism".

And please don't start doing the numbers and needs thing.  Next thing you know you'll be citing "From each according to their ability. To each according to their need."  This isn't about central planning.  This is about voluntary co-operation.

Indeed. But that doesn't deny the fact that 13 million people require more than 3 million people. If they didn't, the world's overpopulation prospects would be much lighter.

The issue is not money.  That is a straw man.  Blow him down as you will.  You set him up.  The West generally has had more grievances, of longer standing, with Ottawa than just the current brouhaha over 400 dollar checks.

On the contrary - the issue is always money. Spending power is almost always behind provincial-federal disputes, be it over healthcare, taxation (obvious), subsidy, etc. You said yourself:

Albertans and many other Westerners want not just to be represented but to see their deeply held views reflected in the laws and decisions that govern them.  In return they contribute wealth to the national coffers.

If that is not an inherently money-related statement, I don't know what is. Money in exchange for power.

The call from the West, since the time of the depression, and before, is to give the West consideration when creating policies.  At least as much as are given to Ontario and Quebec separately (10 million Westerners, 8 million Quebecers, 12 million Ontarians, 2 million Maritimers, Newfoundlanders and Labradorians).

 

I think some consideration has been given in many areas - the NEP and PGR Act were killed, agricultural support is up (400% since '84), and the Western Economic Diversification program was created, amongst other things. What, specifically, are the main gripes with the feds as regards policy? I know Kyoto was a big one, and gay marriage doesn't seem to have gone over well with Alberta's government, but how, exactly, is Alberta ignored/maligned/sabotaged? I'm asking this seriously, not rhetorically.

Finally on the crack about "borrowed" culture - read the book "Braehead" if you want a good synopsis of how Albertan culture became what it is.  It came by it naturally.  It came north with the cattle and cowboys in the 1880s and was seasoned by British remittance men, some of whom were already investing family investments in ranches and railways in the Western US.  Southern Alberta land wasn't considered suitable for anything else other than raising cattle.  This western culture of course is vastly different to the culture of the east where British remittance men invested in fur trading and railroads after having left the Yankee rabble to sort themselves out.  They eventually reinvested in that country as well, in fact according to Amir Taheri they are the biggest foreign investors in the US http://www.benadorassociates.com/pf.php?id=18452.

Interesting, I didn't know that.

The attachment to America may be a bit stronger in Alberta in part because when Alberta needed funds to develop her economy in the 1930s and 40s, she went to Ottawa to get financial support.  Ottawa declined so Alberta printed her own money for a while.  That was declared inappropriate and Ottawa still wouldn't support even loan guarantees so the Alberta government of the day went to New York and there found investors willing to back Alberta so that she could develop her oil assets.

60-70 year old funding and investment dynamics fostered the attachment? I would have imagined it was more the shared political views but I'll take your word for it as I'm not a Westerner (big surprise there, eh?).

I would just make one final note on tone.  For someone who rightly decries stridency and lack of toleration from others you seem quite comfortable taking hardline positions yourself.  Not much room for compromise with you it would seem.

I've already stated that I believe Alberta and the west to have some legitimate gripes, I just don't believe they're as hard done by as some say. Where did I give the impression there was no room for compromise? I don't support electoral tinkering, but I never said Alberta didn't deserve input into policy. I may severely dislike some Western political habits, but they're entitled to them as much as I am. Heck, I even agree with some of the policy ideas and if someone can effectively demonstrate that a policy is good/bad then I'm all ears and will adjust my opinions accordingly. The burden of proof necessary to achieve such a demonstration is another thing, though.  

In any event, wish you well Cadet.  

And to you, though it's Officer Cadet... the Cadets are something different, as I know you know - having been a former 2Lt. I always hated the "cadet" part of the rank - not because I have anything against the cadets but it just sounds so "heck, I'm 12 and playing soldier on the jungle gym". But I guess I deserved that little dig for the "borrowed culture" crack.

You want to bring up "borrowed culture"?   Puh-leeze... anywhere in the GTA it is impossible to decipher where Illinois and Michigan end, and Ontario begins.   I have heard more fractured English and Ebonics babble from directly across the line than anywhere else in Canada.   If you are referring to me as a Western separatist, you missed the mark.   My post was in reply to a "what if 12 million Ontarioids left?" question.   I see you are trying to be an Infantry Officer, RCR I presume, as your moral high ground shouldn't be watered down by exposure to our borrowed values and culture in the PPCLI.   Good luck with that...

Of course Toronto has that crap, so does every city - Edmonton and Calgary included. If you're looking for an argument that American culture doens't influence Ontario's, you're not going to get one from me. Influence and caricature are two different things. I don't think your observations were racist, as the phenomenon you're referring to applies just as much to white kids as anyone else. The violence-worship and idiotic embrace of all things anti-social and ignorant by much of the youth in Toronto is as disturbing to me as it is to you, especially because I still think of Toronto as my home. It was there when I was in highschool but it seems to have really taken off lately. Hopefully, as many of my friends did, they'll grow out of it and pull their heads out of their proverbial a--es.

Edit: As for PPCLI vs. RCR, I'll choose the regiment (if I can) based on their individual appeal, not the culture of the province they're in. I take no moral high ground, I'm just not a big fan of the "wild wild west" theme. On the other hand, I think the geography of Alberta is quite nice, especially the northern portions.

 

[TCBF]

"Roads are corrupt commie psychobabble? Hospitals?"

-No, the psychobabble is what we get INSTEAD of roads and hospitals.  Driven the so-called Trans Canada Highway across North Western Ontario lately?  I have cc'd a Coyote over patches of better tarmac south west of Kandahar.  Both hwy 11 and 17 were in better shape - and with more construction activity - when I first drove to Petawawa 29 years ago.  As well, back then, you could take the train from Thunder Bay to Toronto.  No more.  Cargo goes through the lakehead - pax go north of Lake Nipigon.  A city of 117,000 without pax rail.  Enjoy our friendly new service - if you are a pallet.

Funny how everyone talks about cutting government waste, the naysayers always bring up the programs we actually WANT to put more money into - not the ones that should be cut.

Tom

 

[Old Ranger]

Well, when I got the call to work, I made it from Southern Ontario to Edmonton in 42 hrs.
So, I guess I shouldn't comment; but, I knew it would bring a Smile.

I worked in Valleyview on my days off and the little place called Red Earth with a 400km coverage area.

Expiditing was always a factor when the closest Hospital was 171km away.

Ben

 

[larry Strong]

Fort Mac to Innisfail?   Another set of tail lights zipping by like two tracer bullets in a dead heat.

Tom

never been to fort mac, All my trips usually run down the west side of the province, generally south of Grand Pararie down to the Pass area.

I worked in Valleyview on my days off and the little place called Red Earth with a 400km coverage area.

Ben

Red Earth....thats approaching the spincter of the world

 

[Old Ranger]

Red Earth....thats approaching the spincter of the world

Probably, were I picked up some of my charming nature....nah, already was one ;D

 

[Kat Stevens]

Red Earth may be the cornhole of the planet, but it craps out nothing but money  ;D

 

[Old Ranger]

The only attributes that place had, was the good cook and this one Blonde that had hair down past her knees.
She would put them in two braids, kinda like reins......

 

[TCBF]

(singing) "Back in the saddle again..." (singing ends)

;D

Tom