Albertas Oil ,Candas Mad Cow

[camochick]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1127262599841_38/?hub=Canada

 

[larry Strong]

I would still be happier if he had dropped the Health Care premium instead. That would be $88.00 a month in my pocket, wouldn't take long to beat the rebate cheque.

@Camochick
Not trying to ruin your anticipation for the extra money.

 

[camochick]

Yeah the health premium has to go. I don't pay it because I qualify for a subsidy (this year, next year who knows, you have to make under 12,000 to qualify which is dumb) but if i did have to pay, it would be something that would take from any extra i manage to save. I think 7 billion (the estimated surplus) is more than enough to get rid of that silly health premium. I can't argue with you there Larry.  >

 

[Lance Wiebe]

It seems kind of dumb to me, giving everyone a few hundred bucks.  The guys in the boardrooms, making hundreds of thousands, wouldn't even notice it.  The poor would, however.

I think it would have been a nice gesture to say, give a thousand bucks or so to all those earning less than, say, 24 grand a year.  Call it a home heating rebate, or a gas tax rebate, or whatever. 

Giving it back to everyone is, I suppose, the PC thing to do.  But I don't think it's the RIGHT thing to do.

 

[wotan]

  Resources belong to the provinces, not the central government, hence the oil in Alberta belongs to the people of Alberta.  This works the same for the nickely in Sudbury, ON and the potash in Saskatchewan.

  As well, I fully expect the federal government to tax the $400.00/person, so the rest of Canada will "share" in our royalties, albeit indirectly.

 

[Kirkhill]

It seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable thing to do.  In fact the federal government might do well to consider something similar each year.

In Alberta revenues come and go.  The expenditures are in the hands of the government.  Once they are committed to they must be paid.  Long term commitments, like removing health insurance premiums, may be forever.

If expenditures exceed revenues the government screwed up and should be fired if they make a practice of it.

If revenues exceed expenditures the government screwed up again.  However in this case the solution is simpler.  Rebate the surplus back to the people that supplied the surplus.

$400 will buy 5 months of Health Premiums.  By asking the government to eliminate the premiums then you are asking them to buy you 12 months of premiums ($960) per year in perpetuity.  A lot more than $400.

In Alberta where the debt is eliminated and the revenues are strong this is a fairly simple calculus.

In Ottawa, which has a massive debt, life becomes more complicated.  As  long as we have a debt we don't have a surplus. Anymore than as long as you have a mortgage you don't have spare funds.  You may choose to spend some of your revenues on a vacation or a sponsorship scandal, but that only is possible if your creditors agree.  Most creditors are only too happy to agree if there is a trustworthy customer because the longer you defer paying the more money they pocket as interest charges.

Consequently Ottawa politicians describing a budgetary surplus can afford to play fools games with money they don't really have.  As long as that debt exists Ottawa has no surplus.  If that debt is eliminated, and they can produce a legitimate surplus after the fashion of Alberta then I would strongly suggest sending unbudgeted revenues back to the donors.

This year the check may be $400, next year it may be $1000 but the year after it could be Zero.  In fact they might even have to consider coming back to you for an additional contribution if they got their sums wrong and ended up in the red.

Cheers

And Wotan: not to mention Uranium in Saskatchewan.  It is politics that prevents Saskatchewan building not just uranium mines in Saskatchewan but also refiners, power plants and waste depositories all in one clean, tight little package.  Then they could do like Quebec and export electricity and conceivably locally produced hydrogen.

 

[wotan]

Kirkhill,

  Thanks for the note about uranium in Saskatchewan, I had no idea they had deposits there.  But, again, that uranium belongs to the people of Saskatchewan.

  I do feel badly about Sask, it is a province with a lot of potential, but it seems the government there either lacks the will or the know-how to make it as successful a province as it rightfully should be.

 

[Kirkhill]

Wotan AFAIK Saskatchewan supplied uranium for the Manhattan project as well as the reactors at Pickering and Darlington.

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?ArticleId=A0008271

Error it was the Northwest Territories that contributed to the Manhattan project.  Saskatchewan has only been in the business since the late 1940s.

 

[Diver Rob]

You know .. As a Maritimer, I say Good for Alberta, I probably wouldn't share such a winfall either.

Now with that said, it's amazing that Newfoundland and Nova Scotia are being forced by our wonderful Federal Gov to give away most of their royalties to the Natural Gas fields .. It is also amazing that the North West Territories (Now the second largest exporter of Diamonds in the world) are not keeping their billions of generated royalties.

 

[Kirkhill]

....it's amazing that Newfoundland and Nova Scotia are being forced by our wonderful Federal Gov to give away most of their royalties to the Natural Gas fields .. It is also amazing that the North West Territories (Now the second largest exporter of Diamonds in the world) are not keeping their billions of generated royalties.

Agreed.

 

[Glorified Ape]

Being biased, because I live there, why should Alberta share its windfall?   Alberta gives $12 billion a year already to the Canadian coffers, only getting approx $3 billion in Health transfer payments.   I doubt any other province can say that.

cheers.

FDL  

As x-grunt pointed out, that's clearly not the case. Ontario is the only province to have NEVER received equalization payments. Both Alberta and Ontario receive the same amount, per capita, in transfer payments. Alberta has received, in the past, equalization payments of about 92 million.

It is also amazing that the North West Territories (Now the second largest exporter of Diamonds in the world) are not keeping their billions of generated royalties.

I may be wrong but I believe that may be because they're a territory and not a province.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Just out of curiosity, for all those that are railing against Ontario in particular, do you have any idea how the system even works?

Who are the net donors/net beneficiaries over the life of the program?

How entitlements are calculated?

The reason I ask is that there appears to be many here who are emotionally upset over a system they don't understand which seems at best counterproductive, and at worst just plain silly.

I should add the only reason I know about the system in any detail is I wrote a paper on it a number of years ago.  If I hadn't had to do that research there is no way I would know anything about it all....other than Quebec is the primary beneficiary.



Matthew.  ;D

 

[RangerRay]

Natural resources belong to the provinces, ergo, revenues from said resources belong to the provinces.

If Alberta wants to share with the rest of the country, fine.  But to force them to share either through a NEP II scheme or Kyoto-induced carbon tax scheme, is nothing less than theft.

 

[larry Strong]

Well Carbon Dioxide has been turned into a toxic substance in Alberta but not in Ontario. So the the "Carbon Tax", NEPII, son of NEP, whatever you want to call it, is on it's way. Maybe Mr Dithers said there would be no new NEP. however thats all he has ever said.

 

[S McKee]

You know .. As a Maritimer, I say Good for Alberta, I probably wouldn't share such a winfall either.

Now with that said, it's amazing that Newfoundland and Nova Scotia are being forced by our wonderful Federal Gov to give away most of their royalties to the Natural Gas fields .. It is also amazing that the North West Territories (Now the second largest exporter of Diamonds in the world) are not keeping their billions of generated royalties.

I'm was born a Martimer and grew up in NS, however I now consider my self a red blooded Albertan (having lived here for the last 10 years). I occasionally go back to the old country, and after my week or so "down home" I'm glad that I left. You know why the Maritime Provinces and Newfoundland don't get to keep the lion's share of oil royalties like Alberta?   Because maritime politicians are gutless and the population will always vote in the party that's the most likely to hand out the free money. All the fed libs have to do is throw a bone or two their way once and awhile.

 

[Long in the tooth]

For all the Albertans with parents in other parts of the country - if you don't support equalization, who's supposed to pay for your parents pensions and health care?  Do you send a cheque every month?

One of the reasons Alberta is doing so well is that everyone moves there to work, conveniently leaving welfare, education, pension and health care cases where they came from.  So if you want to minimize the role and effect of the federal government, how are you going to address these issues?

McGinty is right to complain about the fiscal dividend.  Every year Ontario has its human resources expoited to the tune of $23 billion.  Perhaps folks shouldn't worry about Alberta, Quebec or Newfoundland leaving, but start thinking about a scenario in which 11 million people just leave and stop sending truckloads of money to the rest of the country.

By the way, the Auto pact expired years ago.  Arguments about Ontario gaining unfairly due to federal trade deals is a dead issue.

 

[tabernac]

I may be wrong but I believe that may be because they're a territory and not a province.

You're not wrong. Territories fall under federal jurisdiction, so the royalties will go wherever the feds want it to.

So what are you(Albertan's only) all doing with your $400?  ;D

They say the cheque is in the mail, but seriously, I'll believe it when I see that nice little rectangle. I'm proud to be Albertan (but when the world goes from consuming oil like a fiend to something sustainable, and Alberta still hasn't changed, where screwed to say the least.)

 

[Pencil Tech]

I'm was born a Martimer and grew up in NS, however I now consider my self a red blooded Albertan (having lived here for the last 10 years). I occasionally go back to the old country, and after my week or so "down home" I'm glad that I left. You know why the Maritime Provinces and Newfoundland don't get to keep the lion's share of oil royalties like Alberta?   Because maritime politicians are gutless and the population will always vote in the party that's the most likely to hand out the free money. All the fed libs have to do is throw a bone or two their way once and awhile.

Well I thought it was Ralph Klein who is handing out free money.

 

[Kat Stevens]

For all the Albertans with parents in other parts of the country - if you don't support equalization, who's supposed to pay for your parents pensions and health care?   Do you send a cheque every month?

One of the reasons Alberta is doing so well is that everyone moves there to work, conveniently leaving welfare, education, pension and health care cases where they came from.   So if you want to minimize the role and effect of the federal government, how are you going to address these issues?

McGinty is right to complain about the fiscal dividend.   Every year Ontario has its human resources expoited to the tune of $23 billion.   Perhaps folks shouldn't worry about Alberta, Quebec or Newfoundland leaving, but start thinking about a scenario in which 11 million people just leave and stop sending truckloads of money to the rest of the country.

By the way, the Auto pact expired years ago.   Arguments about Ontario gaining unfairly due to federal trade deals is a dead issue.

Buh bye, I'll miss you terribly.   Send a postcard when you get settled.   Just think, you can keep electing Liberal govts until the end of time, and no more whining about it from us Westerners.   Pack lots of sweaters, it"ll be cold out there.

 

[Wingman]

There is confusion with who pays what in the country.   It is true that Ontatio has never recieved equalization payments (inception 1957) and Alberta has not received since 1964.   It is also true that Alberta has paid around $137 billion into the program since 1957.   But this is assuming that the money flows one way.  

If you were to take into consideration the federal transfer payments to the provinces over the same period, Alberta and BC would be the only ones to have paid more than they received.   Ontario has taken more than $20 billion than they give in equalization payments while Alberta has given more than $100 billion.   And Quebec .... well, having received more than $170 billion in equalization payments alone, it could be assumed that they received the same amount in federal transfer payments.

I don't beleive that Alberta should share its wealth directly; it already does in the equalization payments.   The NEP didn't work (Trudeau's legacy) and another grab at the tarsands won't either.  If you want less taxes or money back at the end of the year, the solution is obvious.  The Gomery Commission is exposing only the tip of the corruption iceberg.