All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)

[dapaterson]

The answer would be along the lines that the CF projects an image of conservative professionalism and long hair and earrings worn by men are, still, contrary to that.  There's no doubt that they are worn in society but they remain, for the most part, very limited in conservative circles.  A good portion of Canadian society will still see a man with long hair as being somehow disorderly and/or rebellious and/or a hippie and/or any number of other things that are inconsistent with the values that the CF seeks to project.

But to say "We have to look conservative" holds no legal water.  Charter guarantees of equality cut both ways - what military imperative requires men to be clean-shaven with short hair and no earrings?  We have demonstrated that all three of those elements can be accomodated within the CF without impairing operational effectiveness - so why do we maintain regulations that, at face value, are contrary to the Charter?  "We've always done it this way" is not a valid legal claim.

 

[vonGarvin]

"Equal rights" in terms of dress is utter BS IMHO.  Men cut their hair, women wear bras.  Men grow beards, women wear skirts.  Suck it up and do as we say.  I mean, for crying out loud, if you don't like it, I offer you this advice:
GET OUT OF THE MILITARY AND MAKE ROOM FOR THOSE WHO WILL FOCUS ON THE IMPORTANT STUFF (LIKE BEING A GOOD SOLDIER/SAILOR/AIRMAN/AIRWOMAN).

GET A SHAVE AND A HAIRCUT WHEN ORDERED TO!

Remember, the military can order you to do things that other organisations cannot.  And we are expected to have a certain "look".  Being a volunteer force, if I hear one more person whinge about this bullshit, I'm going to have a f*cking coronary!  I mean, honest to God, people.

 

[vonGarvin]

I'll add to this.  There is no reason to wear our uniform (constitutionally) in garrison.  Rank?  Regiment?  Pffft.  Just get a T-Shirt that says "Hi, I'm Sergeant Johnson.  I'm in 2 RCHA".

For crying out loud, I mean, this is the whingiest thread: ever.  It's a beard, people, and "I want to wear it" holds no water.  I want to look like this:

But "the man" won't let me.  Big deal: I signed up for it, so now I look like this:

I CHOSE to join the CF, knowing full well how I would have to dress and make myself look.  So did you (well, the military members reading this).  Suck it up is all I can say.

 

[Edward Campbell]

"Equal rights" in terms of dress is utter BS IMHO.  Men cut their hair, women wear bras.  Men grow beards, women wear skirts.  Suck it up and do as we say.  I mean, for crying out loud, if you don't like it, I offer you this advice:
GET OUT OF THE MILITARY AND MAKE ROOM FOR THOSE WHO WILL FOCUS ON THE IMPORTANT STUFF (LIKE BEING A GOOD SOLDIER/SAILOR/AIRMAN/AIRWOMAN).

GET A SHAVE AND A HAIRCUT WHEN ORDERED TO!

Remember, the military can order you to do things that other organisations cannot.  And we are expected to have a certain "look".  Being a volunteer force, if I hear one more person whinge about this bullshit, I'm going to have a f*cking coronary!  I mean, honest to God, people.

Uhhh, OK, TV, we hear and obey, I guess, but:

 

[Fishbone Jones]

But to say "We have to look conservative" holds no legal water.  Charter guarantees of equality cut both ways - what military imperative requires men to be clean-shaven with short hair and no earrings?  We have demonstrated that all three of those elements can be accomodated within the CF without impairing operational effectiveness - so why do we maintain regulations that, at face value, are contrary to the Charter?  "We've always done it this way" is not a valid legal claim.

Uniform - having the same form, appearance, manner, etc. as others of the same class; conforming to a given standard; being or looking the same in all parts; undiversified

 

[vonGarvin]

Uhhh, OK, TV, we hear and obey, I guess, but:

(The link failed to load)

 

[Edward Campbell]

(The link failed to load)

Can you see it now?

 

[dapaterson]

"Equal rights" in terms of dress is utter BS IMHO.  Men cut their hair, women wear bras.  Men grow beards, women wear skirts.  Suck it up and do as we say.  I mean, for crying out loud, if you don't like it, I offer you this advice:
GET OUT OF THE MILITARY AND MAKE ROOM FOR THOSE WHO WILL FOCUS ON THE IMPORTANT STUFF (LIKE BEING A GOOD SOLDIER/SAILOR/AIRMAN/AIRWOMAN).

GET A SHAVE AND A HAIRCUT WHEN ORDERED TO!

Remember, the military can order you to do things that other organisations cannot.  And we are expected to have a certain "look".  Being a volunteer force, if I hear one more person whinge about this bullshit, I'm going to have a f*cking coronary!  I mean, honest to God, people.

The proud old internet technique - "I have neither facts nor compelling argument - so I'll use bold caps in another colour to prove my point". 


Reading the non-yellow part of the text "Men grow beards" - but men are not allowed to grow beards unless they are part of some special groups - for no valid military reason.

No one has been able to demonstrate that a vehicle technician's beard impairs the Army's operational effectiveness.  So why would an Armoured officer's beard destroy the CF?  Or an AVN Tech's beard?

And if beards are open to debate, why not other aspects of dress?  Does a female infrantryman wearing stud earrings on parade impair operational effectiveness?  No?  Then why would a male RSM wearing an earring impair operational effectiveness?

Blind reverence to outdated concepts of "what a soldier should look like" based solely on "because we've never done it that way before" would have us wearing puttees, carrying the Ross Rifle and towing our Iltis behind our warhorse.  The institution evolves and changes.


Obviously, an internet forum is not the place to address these issues - nor would I counsel random acts of disobedience, as few presiding officers at summary trials would entertain motions dealing with the constitutionality of the dress manual.  But the institutional leaders will eventually get dragged kicking and screaming into the 1980s - when men wore their hair long and wore earrings.  And tied an onion to their belts.  Which was the style at the time.

 

[GAP]

I missed the onion thingy.....was it good?  ;D

 

[George Wallace]

So?  How much respect or credibility does this have as a soldier?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The proud old internet technique - "I have neither facts nor compelling argument - so I'll use bold caps in another colour to prove my point". 


Reading the non-yellow part of the text "Men grow beards" - but men are not allowed to grow beards unless they are part of some special groups - for no valid military reason.

No one has been able to demonstrate that a vehicle technician's beard impairs the Army's operational effectiveness.  So why would an Armoured officer's beard destroy the CF?  Or an AVN Tech's beard?

And if beards are open to debate, why not other aspects of dress?  Does a female infrantryman wearing stud earrings on parade impair operational effectiveness?  No?  Then why would a male RSM wearing an earring impair operational effectiveness?

Blind reverence to outdated concepts of "what a soldier should look like" based solely on "because we've never done it that way before" would have us wearing puttees, carrying the Ross Rifle and towing our Iltis behind our warhorse.  The institution evolves and changes.


Obviously, an internet forum is not the place to address these issues - nor would I counsel random acts of disobedience, as few presiding officers at summary trials would entertain motions dealing with the constitutionality of the dress manual.  But the institutional leaders will eventually get dragged kicking and screaming into the 1980s - when men wore their hair long and wore earrings.  And tied an onion to their belts.  Which was the style at the time.

Well. I guess we can all start dressing like the Corps of Frontiersmen. No need to look 'uniform' no need for dress regs. I'm sure discipline and cohesion will be maintained and not get kicked to the gutter. Oh, wait. You can dress and do whatever the fuck you want. Might as well say piss on it. I'll do my maintenance the way I decide and the rest of my job can be done however the fuck I want also. Report to some arsehole in Ottawa? Sorry, only if I feel like it. You'll have to catch me on Wednesday afternoons, I'm taking spa days the rest of the week. :

 

[vonGarvin]

Of course I went bold, big and yellow, because you don't seem to "get it" and instead cry back to the Charter.  If our concepts seem foreign to you, then get out.  You obviously have better things to do.  Like whinge. 


Allow me to illustrate.  The Armed Forces has an order of dress.  Like it or not, it has changed and evolved, but even though longer hair, earrings on men and face tattoes would not affect our ability to fight as a force, they are not allowed, because we set certain standards, that vary by gender and in some cases by heritage, and that's fine.  I also see that some of our tradition allows for certain trades or branches to have distinctive aspects: navy with beards, highland units with kilts, etc.  It's not a human rights issue to grow your hair.  It's not an operational issue to have it cut, but when the chain of command can legally order its members to "charge that Machine Gun nest", knowing that some will die, I think that beards/no beards is a pretty lame thing to go crying to the Supreme Court about.





ER: Yes, I see it now ;D  And they were ordered to GROW beards.  And they were awesome.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Can you see it now?

And if I recall correctly, it wasn't long after the picture hit the news wire before word from Ottawa came down for them to get properly trimmed and presentable. Pioneers can wear beards, but they still have to fall within the dress regs.

 

[PuckChaser]

Remember, the military can order you to do things that other organisations cannot.  And we are expected to have a certain "look".  Being a volunteer force, if I hear one more person whinge about this bullshit, I'm going to have a f*cking coronary!  I mean, honest to God, people.

+300 for that. Its just a damn beard. I like having a beard. My fiancee likes me having a beard. Do I have one? Nope, because I can follow the rules and don't want to whine to the MIR to get a no shave chit. Some people have medical reasons not to shave, by all means, keep your beard. Just keep it neatly trimmed and presentable.

 

[Jarnhamar]

So?  How much respect or credibility does this have as a soldier?

 

[Michael OLeary]

I think the solution is quite simple.

(a) If you're in one of the select groups that Dress Regs allow to have beards, by all means grow one. be prepared to show that you're in one of those groups if someone asks.

(b) If you are not in one of those groups but have a legitimate reason to have a beard, such as a valid and current medical chit, put it on the counter when someone asks and don't bitch about them doing their job by asking.

(c) If you don't fit in (a) or (b) and you still want to grow a beard, man up, get a lawyer and be the guy who goes for the Constitutional challenge.

(d) If you're not in (a) or (b), and don't have the balls for (c), go away because now you're just whining.

 

[dapaterson]

I weep for an institution when the only means for it to change is through an adversarial legal process, instead of internal discussion, debate, and evolution.


If the Charter concepts of equality (admittedly with qualifiers) seem foreign to you, may I suggest that serving a military that is subordinate to that document may not be the best career choice for you.  Perhaps "Loner living in cave, living off the land, with no contact with society (but surrounded by well-painted rocks)" might suit you better, to avoid any contamination from the outside society that's bound by that same Charter. 

Yes, there are many more pressing issues confronting the CF today.  But at some point the CF institutionally will have to move.  It is eminently preferable to make such movement on your own time, in your own way - waiting for a court order to do things in short order means the institution has much less control over its destiny and will generally be more damaging that a self-directed process of change.


The internet (and chat sites like this) are like a good argument debate in the mess (like "Hockey Night in Canadafor the Leafs game?  Or RDS for the Habs game?").  All that's missing is the tap, and thus the chance to buy a drink for your argument partner midway through to keep things going.  So the best I can offer the Technoviking at this time is a virtual pint - and note that, at least, the virtual suds don't have to worry about getting caught in your beard.  >

 

[canada94]

I think the solution is quite simple.

(a) If you're in one of the select groups that Dress Regs allow to have beards, by all means grow one. be prepared to show that you're in one of those groups if someone asks.

(b) If you are not in one of those groups but have a legitimate reason to have a beard, such as a valid and current medical chit, put it on the counter when someone asks and don't ***** about them doing their job by asking.

(c) If you don't fit in (a) or (b) and you still want to grow a beard, man up, get a lawyer and be the guy who goes for the Constitutional challenge.

(d) If you're not in (a) or (b), and don't have the balls for (c), go away because now you're just whining.

This is arguably the greatest thing I have ever read, I just cried laughing for at least 5 minutes.

Thank you !

mIKE

 

[Michael OLeary]

I weep for an institution when the only means for it to change is through an adversarial legal process, instead of internal discussion, debate, and evolution.

Yup, but that's where we appear to be with some issues, at least until some agreeable GOFO (you know, those senior dudes that everyone wants to fire in that other thread) gets into a position to overthrow the Dress Policy Committee on this point.  Until then, you'd probably have a better chance trying to fix the DWAN by user-submitted memo.

 

[dapaterson]

Until then, you'd probably have a better chance trying to fix the DWAN by user-submitted memo.

Hey!  Are you suggesting my DWAN improvement memos don't get read and actionned?