All things Charlottesville (merged)

[FJAG]

I'm not remotely speaking on behalf of Humphry Bogart. However, I read the link he posted.  I was very much impressed, and if you skim through it you may get the "convergence" reference.


Oh, and I'm going to re-read it tomorrow or Friday to try and take it all onboard.  :nod:

I've read it and focused on this quote which had me thinking that its a bit out to lunch.

Viewed in terms of Sorokin’s theories, the current tensions between the West and Islam suggest a conflict between an overripe ultra-materialistic Western culture, detached from its religious heritage and without appreciation of transcendent values, against a medieval Ideational culture that has lost much of its earlier spiritual creativity.

The way I see things it's not the hedonistic liberal sensates in the West that are at odds with Islamic Ideational culture but the West's extreme right Christian Ideational culture. I think that the ripe (not overripe) ultra-materialistic Western sensate culture couldn't give a crap about Islamists as long as our own government was strictly sectarian and protected all of it's own citizens from religion-based extremism regardless of its origins.  :2c:

But then maybe I'm reading too much into that one paragraph. I have a tendency to look for the internal flaw in logic whenever I read long-winded "visionary theories".

:cheers:

 

[George Wallace]

2nd try....nope.....4th try ......is the charm.....

 

[jollyjacktar]

Sadly, our sectarian western governments can't always protect the materialistic masses from the religious shitheads of various origins.  So maybe they care a little bit.  I know I do.

 

[FJAG]

George. The flaw in this meme isn't that we're not talking about a response to "free speech" but a response to "hate speech".

Not all "free speech" is created equal. Nor deserving of respect. Demonstrating against fascist hate speech doesn't make you a fascist.

:cheers:

 

[Brad Sallows]

>The way I see things it's not the hedonistic liberal sensates in the West that are at odds with Islamic Ideational culture but the West's extreme right Christian Ideational culture.

It looks that way because the hedonistic liberal licentious* (liberty implies responsibility) sensates have decided they are at war with the fundamentalist ("extreme right" is not necessarily a proper characterization; many can be downright collectivist) Christian ideationists and have adopted (ironically) the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" as a principle governing their alliances.

If we remove the Christians from the picture by coming to some sort of multi-faith co-existence agreement among all the "people of the book", then we'll find out how much friction truly exists between the sensates and Islamic ideationists.

*Recent news: activists are lobbying for a newly approved PrEP drug - I assume Truvada - to be provided at public expense to tune of about $1,000 / month.  To borrow a phrase from those who occasionally oppose public/private partnerships, it amounts to privatization of liberty, socialization of responsibility.

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

George. The flaw in this meme isn't that we're not talking about a response to "free speech" but a response to "hate speech".

Not all "free speech" is created equal. Nor deserving of respect. Demonstrating against fascist hate speech doesn't make you a fascist.

:cheers:

I like your posts FJAG and also George Wallace's posts but I have to disagree with this as there are hundreds of videos on youtube of antifa pepper spraying and beating innocent bystanders or causing property damage. Berkeley really showed the world the real antifa. If the alt-right is the conservative extremist side then antifa is the extremist left, as well as BLM.

Nazis are on the front pages of media sources but a group who is openly racist and calls for violence against a race of people goes unnoticed..when its the same thing. The fact that Yusra Khogali is still kicking around Toronto BLM says a lot about their agenda..

 

[George Wallace]

George. The flaw in this meme isn't that we're not talking about a response to "free speech" but a response to "hate speech".

Not all "free speech" is created equal. Nor deserving of respect. Demonstrating against fascist hate speech doesn't make you a fascist.

:cheers:

I do agree with you, if we were talking about our backyard, Canada.  However, in the US, their Constitution protects the Right to Freedom of Speech much more strongly than ours does.  They have not gone as far as we have to define "Hate Speech" into Law .  In the US any faction can freely say whatever they want.  It is when they start outright promotion of violence against others, or actually committing violence against others, that they have crossed that fine line and are subject to the Law.  Neo-Nazis, White Supremacist, Communists, BLM, whomever; can all march in protest peacefully and have freedom of speech, until they become violent.  We don't have to agree with it, but it is "their Right" to do so in the US.
Unlike here, where anyone accused of "Hate Speech" is subject to arrest.

 

[Brad Sallows]

1. Mussolini founded fascism.
2. Mussolini summarized fascism as "Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state", and characterized it as socialism with nationalism (contrasting with communism as socialism without nationalism).

In a one-dimensional mapping, fascism is leftist.  A second dimension is required to separate the left between communism and fascism.

Everything else is revisionism.  But for Hitler, fascism wouldn't have a taint much greater than communism.  But Hitler and Nazism existed, so self-interested leftists have been trying to read fascism out of their part of the spectrum.  Usually it starts by misunderstanding/misinterpreting (ignorance or deceit) Trotsky's and Stalin's remarks about fascism being "right socialism" (right of communism).

 

[George Wallace]

I really hope the majority of this crap stays south of the border and out of Canada.

It hasn't....There is a group of less than enlightened wanting to tear down everything "Cornwallis" in Halifax and environs.

Aboriginals were offended with the name of the East Block on Parliament Hill being named after a Father of Confederation, Langevin, because he had good intentions (?) in creating Residential Schools, and the name removed.  Using today's morals, and perhaps "hurt feelings" the 'evil' must be purged.....But we have idolized Louis Riel, no longer a traitor or Rebellion leader, but now a patriot with schools and monuments named after him. 

It is indeed a different world we live in today, than fifty years, one hundred years, two hundred years ago.

 

[George Wallace]

.......So we are a little late.

 

[FJAG]

I like your posts FJAG and also George Wallace's posts but I have to disagree with this as there are hundreds of videos on youtube of antifa pepper spraying and beating innocent bystanders or causing property damage. Berkeley really showed the world the real antifa. If the alt-right is the conservative extremist side then antifa is the extremist left, as well as BLM.

Nazis are on the front pages of media sources but a group who is openly racist and calls for violence against a race of people goes unnoticed..when its the same thing. The fact that Yusra Khogali is still kicking around Toronto BLM says a lot about their agenda..

I get that. I've said in other posts that I don't approve of nor want to be seen as an apologists for Antifa (and definitely not for Yusra Khogali)but this meme is one that is in response to the Charlottesville situation and not Berkeley.

In Charlottesville counterdemonstrators (mostly locals and some Antifa [demonstrating against fascists does not make one an Antifa member]) were demonstrating (at times violently but that's probably a chicken and egg question) against hate speech. That does not make them fascists as the meme implies.

I like a lot of George's stuff too but I've been speaking out quite a bit against folks who are passively failing to condemn the Alt R while (like Trump) suggesting there is equal fault on both sides. I think that's bullsh*t.

The reason I don't see this as an equal fault thing is probably because most of my family fought for Germany in the Second World War. I don't know if any were actually Nazi party members - one didn't talk about that - but my father, one grandfather and a host of uncles (several of whom did not return) were under arms fighting for the Nazis. I've got a fairly good handle on how easy it is for people, who are otherwise decent, to get wrapped up in an ideology that is patently evil if there isn't enough vocal and, if necessary confrontational, opposition to it. Staring white supremacists, fascists and the KKK in the face and telling them to shut their traps isn't fascism, like the meme suggests; it's the right thing to do. We'll probably never know where the violence started--both sides came loaded for bear--but the fact that violence took place doesn't change my view.

If I, as the child of people who fought for the Nazis, can see this then it should be blindingly obvious to everyone whose forefathers landed in Italy and Normandy.

:cheers:

 

[mariomike]

If I, as the child of people who fought for the Nazis, can see this then it should be blindingly obvious to everyone whose forefathers landed in Italy and Normandy.

It's always been blindingly obvious to me. My uncle was KIA in France in 1944. ( RCAF )
My wife is Jewish. She has no love for Nazis either. ( White supremacists - alt right or whatever they call themselves. ).

 

[Infanteer]

.......So we are a little late.

...except that is inaccurate hyperbole.  The statues are being taken down by constituted authorities and either put in museums, on private property, or in new locations, generally away from courthouses or other government buildings, with information to provide the appropriate context.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

HB. I'll start off with the assumption that you are not considering lesbianism per se as an example of decadence but are focusing on the horse and buggy element as being representative of the cultural decadence.

I don't see the horse and buggy thing as an example of extremism. What I see it as is playfulness that becomes available to two women who live in a free society. The burqa example, on the other hand, is clearly symbolic of of a society that does not value freedom for one half of it's membership.

I'm not sure what you mean by a need for "convergence" but I take it that you mean some give and take by both sides so that they can coexist in the middle. Sorry but if that's what you mean them I do not agree (although I am usually a great fan of reasonable compromise). We should never give up any of our freedoms (especially those of our minorities) to appease extremists. If they don't accept some flamboyantly underdressed characters gamboling about one day of the year, then that is their problem and not ours.

:cheers:

You're assumption was correct FJAG.  I'll start with the caveat that I'm a sensate through and through.  I'm not the least bit religious; however, I try to understand why people think and act a certain way.  In other words, provide an explanation as to why things are the way they are.

With respect to the pictures, I think you would find a large number of people in society find each of the above pictures distasteful and morally wrong.  Not saying I think this way, but if you asked Joe Public to look at these photos with a question of "is this normal?" You would probably find that a large portion of the middle ground (80% of the population) would say no.

Canadian society is by and large, extreme sensate, so we view the first picture (playful sex slavery/sadomasochism) as less offensive; whereas the Burkha clad women are viewed differently.  We've been socialized and conditioned to think this way; however, socialization has natural limits. 

My point on convergence has to do with, using the above as an example, enough of that 80% of society (i.e. the ones who define what our cultural norms are) get pissed off and there is a shift from sensate to integral or ideation to integral.  There will be a shift again as boundaries can only be pushed so far.

I'm not sure decadence is the best word to use. It's use is very dependent on subjective moral opinions.
Reactionary would be my word to explain both images, in terms of a shift in civil liberties going in opposite directions.
Both of those examples became more prevalent in the world after WWII for entirely different reasons.

Nope, I meant decadence, but not in the way you think.  Decadence as in "decline" whether perceived or real.  When enough Muslims get pissed off at the Religious zealots running their societies, there will be a war/conflict and a cultural shift.  Likewise, when enough Westerners get pissed at perceived social excesses in our society, there will also be a war/conflict. 

I've read it and focused on this quote which had me thinking that its a bit out to lunch.

The way I see things it's not the hedonistic liberal sensates in the West that are at odds with Islamic Ideational culture but the West's extreme right Christian Ideational culture. I think that the ripe (not overripe) ultra-materialistic Western sensate culture couldn't give a crap about Islamists as long as our own government was strictly sectarian and protected all of it's own citizens from religion-based extremism regardless of its origins.  :2c:

But then maybe I'm reading too much into that one paragraph. I have a tendency to look for the internal flaw in logic whenever I read long-winded "visionary theories".

:cheers:

I should have clarified that the link I posted is a secondary source.  It's someone outlining Sorokin's theories but then providing their own spin based on today's events.  Sorokin has been dead for nearly 50 years.

 

[FJAG]

I do agree with you, if we were talking about our backyard, Canada.  However, in the US, their Constitution protects the Right to Freedom of Speech much more strongly than ours does.  They have not gone as far as we have to define "Hate Speech" into Law .  In the US any faction can freely say whatever they want.  It is when they start outright promotion of violence against others, or actually committing violence against others, that they have crossed that fine line and are subject to the Law.  Neo-Nazis, White Supremacist, Communists, BLM, whomever; can all march in protest peacefully and have freedom of speech, until they become violent.  We don't have to agree with it, but it is "their Right" to do so in the US.
Unlike here, where anyone accused of "Hate Speech" is subject to arrest.

George, I don't think that it matters that it's not Canada.

The First Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law ... abridging freedom of speech ... nor the right of the people peaceably to assemble" It's a limitation on the US government and not the people themselves (including counterdemonstrators). It isn't an absolute right by the way; there are several categories of speech that can be legislatively  restricted.

There is nothing in the US Constitution that says the people have to sit back and let white supremacists, fascists, and the KKK spout their drivel. Counterdemonstrations are an equal exercise of First Amendment rights and, IMHO, in this case occupy the moral high ground.

Neither you nor I have any idea who started the violence (except for the a**hole with the car) but I'm betting on the fact that there were elements on both sides who were itching for it to happen.

:cheers:

 

[RocketRichard]

To quote Seth Rogen:

The idea that Nazis and people who oppose Nazis are somehow equatable is the most batshit f******* crazy shit I've ever f******* heard.


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[EpicBeardedMan]

To quote Seth Rogen:

The idea that Nazis and people who oppose Nazis are somehow equatable is the most batshit f******* crazy crap I've ever f******* heard.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ah yes, Seth Rogen, the Aristotle of our time....

 

[RocketRichard]

Ah yes, Seth Rogen, the Aristotle of our time....

Ha ha


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[FJAG]

Ah yes, Seth Rogen, the Aristotle of our time....

:rofl:

 

[MilEME09]

It hasn't....There is a group of less than enlightened wanting to tear down everything "Cornwallis" in Halifax and environs.

Aboriginals were offended with the name of the East Block on Parliament Hill being named after a Father of Confederation, Langevin, because he had good intentions (?) in creating Residential Schools, and the name removed.  Using today's morals, and perhaps "hurt feelings" the 'evil' must be purged.....But we have idolized Louis Riel, no longer a traitor or Rebellion leader, but now a patriot with schools and monuments named after him. 

It is indeed a different world we live in today, than fifty years, one hundred years, two hundred years ago.

On one side I see it as small groups trying to make them selves heard with fell good ideas that our political culture is also filled with. While it maybe be hard to judge the morality of the actions of the past by today's standards, we also live in a country of laws and rules, groups that break those rules to push their agenda should be punished. We have mechanisms to voice opinions, peacefully, some decide that it is not good enough and go their own way no matter how legal or illegal their actions are. If the rule of law is to be respected, then it is time to play hard ball with everyone. The more we show we will not tolerate actions against the rule of law (of all forms) the better.