All things Charlottesville (merged)

[FJAG]

While the message of hate and intolerance being displayed by the white supremacy groups in NC is wrong and distasteful, what happened cannot be totally laid at their feet.  As the saying goes, "it takes two to Tango", there were those there on the opposite side of the coin who assisted in accelerating crap going south swiftly. . . .  There might not be equality in blame between the two, but one of those sides shouldn't get a complete pass in complicity. That isn't right or proper either.

I also have no problem condemning the alt-right, but people on the left haven't condemned BLM or "Antifa" so, you get what you give in my opinion...

You're not always right when you say that when it comes to violence that it takes two to tango - sometimes all it takes is one side - but in this case I think you were absolutely right.  I'm not for one minute supporting or defending Antifa activists. My take on it is that one side was completely made up of white supremacists, neo Nazis and KKK and their sympathizers who were there to spout hate while the other side was made up of counterprotestors who were there to voice their opposition. Some of those, but not all, were Antifa. Both sides came ready for the violence that followed and which, in my mind, was inevitable.

. . .  If the protestors had of had their say and day to weep, wail and stamp their feet without being goaded further, maybe we wouldn't have this thread going on. . .

We probably would have had a different but no less vigorous debate about how white supremacists, neo nazis and the KKK are now able to spout their hate in public without being challenged in the US

Lastly, as a child of a man who went through Italy, France and Holland against "real" Nazi and Fascists I'm pretty sure the skinhead dickbags and sheet wearing ****s of the KKK don't rate that status  or that I'd fail to recognize that.  The Reich is the major leagues these amateurs will never pay in. If it comes to pass, I expect it will look and be much different.

The idea that you think a tiny fraction of the world's population could rise up and erect another Nazi Party (Again) is shocking. When do you think white supremacists will come into power and can you source what politicians you feel would turn Canada or America in general into another Nazi Party?

My grandfather was a conscripted European and my other grandfather fought for Canada, I have heard stories from both and the wieners of 2017 who call themselves Nazis or "Anti-fascists" are a joke. The real anti-fascists stormed the beaches on D-Day, they didn't pepper spray elderly people, beat people with poles, damage personal property, and ironically, stop free speech (Berkeley was an eye-opener for most).

I disagree. Extremism can easily grow when the circumstances are right and when the general population does not take a stand.

I know that there will be screams of outrage over what I say but take a look at the Trump situation. Not that I think that he's a Nazi, but that the majority of the world and the US (and even the Republican Party) thought that he was a joke who had zero chance of being elected. Yet he won. It is all too easy to underestimate an opponent and to write him off as a joke. Hitler himself was thought of this way by many even though there were clear signs of the direction he would go in his early writings.

The threat isn't so much that a given country turns into a Nazi regime with swastikas and the SS but that they will turn into an authoritarian regime with a nationalistic bend to it. That's really what's at the heart of fascism "radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce"

There are many democratic countries that are showing signs of these trends.

Look at Duterte in the Philippines. The man was taken as a fool but nonetheless elected by his country and is now running a program of extrajudicial murder of people suspected in the drug trade.

Or Erdogan in Turkey. Elected and recently given a mandate by his people to change the system of government from a primarily parliamentary system to a presidential one that lets him rule much by decree.

Russia under Putin.

Venezuela under Chavez and Maduro (yes I know it's supposedly socialist)

For an overview of where the world stands look here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Also, I never said playful activity - you said that - but since you brought it up can you source anything in the past couple years that involves mass genocide, global war, lynchings, bombings, etc that makes these people a threat other than having to listen to their moronic chants while carrying tiki torches from your local hardware store? It seems to me that these people are a nuisance who comprise a tiny percentage of the population that talk the talk but don't do anything, much like the Westboro Baptist Church. They survive and thrive off the attention that people give them, and the funny thing is that the left doesnt even realize they're helping their cause by calling everyone you disagree with on the right a Nazi.

You can't allow this type of rabble to go unchallenged. That's exactly how things did start in Germany. You may recall that there was revolution and massive unrest and unemployment in post World War 1 Germany with numerous parties (both left and right wing) Hitler's rise started as part of the big lie that Germany lost the war because it was stabbed in the back and as the situations were desperate people started more and more buying into the nationalist rhetoric coming from Hitler and his ilk. He didn't start with mass genocides or global war. He started out with a modest following rooted in anti-communism and nationalism that snowballed.

You're right when you say that they thrive on the attention they are given but with today's media that's not a problem at all. Just think about how much more they would thrive if they were seen to have no opposition and in fact to have the President's tacit support.

Sorry guys. These folks may have been a joke a dozen years ago. No longer.

[cheers]

 

[FJAG]

Actually, the Pyramids weren't built by slaves but a (for the day) well paid, we'll treated work force.  They even had medical benefits.

Apparently in bread and beer

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/pyramid_builders_01.shtml

:cheers:

 

[jollyjacktar]

Well now you're lumping all sorts of different types of regimes into the same mould.  Communist inspired, Islamofascist (as some describe), post Communist, what have you.

I agree, that under certain conditions and circumstances the USA or  here at home a government could become a modern day Reich.  I don't believe that day is even anywhere near happening. 

Is what's happening down south and to a lesser extent here another form of ethnic cleansing by one group over another?  I would be surprised if there wasn't push back from some.

 

[Infanteer]

You think Antifa needs to get baited to be violent? Why not look upon every protest event since Trump was inaugurated? Are you really implying that Antifa/BLM are peaceful by default? Interesting.

1.  The "other side" wasn't "antifa", a distinction many are failing to make.  From everything I've seen, a majority of the counter-protesters were Charlottesville locals who decided to protest people marching through their streets yelling "Jews will not replace us" and "Blood and Soil."  "Antifa" groups took advantage of this and showed up.  Saying the "other side" was the "antifa" crowd does a disservice to the majority of the counter-protesters.

2.  Antifa was baited.  They wouldn't have been in Charlottesville if the ethnonationalists didn't make a deliberate effort to broadcast what was essentially a hate rally shrouded in the cloak of an old statue.  This doesn't mean the "antifa" weren't in the wrong for going there to fight, and those who did should be prosecuted as well, but it shouldn't cloud the issue of primary culpability in this one.

 

[ModlrMike]

I get the sense that we're trying to pick up a turd from the clean end.

 

[Loachman]

I disagree. Extremism can easily grow when the circumstances are right and when the general population does not take a stand.

<snip>

You can't allow this type of rabble to go unchallenged.

Which applies equally to the Alt-Left/Antifa/BLM side as well - and they have generated far more violence, disruption, and property loss in far more places than the Alt-Right or white supremacists have lately. There has been little criticism of any of them, though, by either mainstream media or Democrat politicians. Can anybody find a single quote from Hillary, Obama, or Bernie that I may have missed?

Both sides push intolerance, just in different flavours.

Both need to be denounced, and fought with every moral and legal means necessary.

In this case, Antifa knew about the rally, and went looking for a fight - but blaming white supremacists for the riot is somehow the default reaction. I put the blame on both.

 

[mariomike]

Extremism can easily grow when the circumstances are right and when the general population does not take a stand.

“Jews will not replace us! Jews will not replace us! Jews will not replace us!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n12sjwk9FBE

You can't allow this type of rabble to go unchallenged. That's exactly how things did start in Germany.

:goodpost:

A country that lost so many men and women defeating Hitler is no place for Nazi flags and slogans.

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

A country that lost so many men and women defeating Hitler is no place for Nazi flags and slogans.

Unfortunately they died for the right of the people wearing Nazi flags to say what they want to say, due to the first amendment.

 

[jmt18325]

Until they offend someone, then they get burned.

No, they don't.  Monuments that celebrate villains are quite different than books that ensure they're never forgotten.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The Chief of the Charlotteville Police gave a statement. Basically, he said it was an Alt Right rally. Proper permits and all. Charlotte's racist Vice Mayor, kept stepping out of his jurisdiction to squash it (that part is mine). The ACLU took it to court for reinstatement, and won. He also said there were two side engaged in violent confrontation and there is video and statements that the melee started when the the white supremacists were attacked by those from the other side. When the chief said, "they had better equipment than we do." He didn't name a side. There's lot's of pictures showing how well equipped the attackers were. No one here can state how many of what side was there. If they give numbers pulled from a source, ten other sources will give different numbers. It will take tons of photos and identification people to say who or how many were there. It's, at this point, a useless stat used to bolster a discussion point. It's another of those things that will have to wait until the official Federal investigation is complete and the results released.

Just an aside and maybe someone heard, did anyone see how many were armed with those horrible 'assault rifles'  : did anyone get shot? Any ND's reported??

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

The Chief of the Charlotteville Police gave a statement. Basically, he said it was an Alt Right rally. Proper permits and all. Charlotte's racist Vice Mayor, kept stepping out of his jurisdiction to squash it. The ACLU took it to court for reinstatement, and won. He also said there were two side engaged in violent confrontation and there is video and statements that the melee started when the the white supremacists were attacked by those from the other side. When the chief said, "they had better equipment than we do." He didn't name a side. There's lot's of pictures showing how well equipped the attackers were. No one here can state how many of what side was there. If they give numbers pulled from a source, ten other sources will give different numbers. It will take tons of photos and identification people to say who or how many were there. It's, at this point, a useless stat used to bolster a discussion point. It's another of those things that will have to wait until the official Federal investigation is complete and the results released.

Just an aside and maybe someone heard, did anyone see how many were armed with those horrible 'assault rifles'  : did anyone get shot? Any ND's reported??

As an extra note, the car that plowed into a crowd of people already had damage on it, you can see in the footage. The driver claimed he was surrounded by protesters, specifically BLM and Antifa, and they were smashing in his windows so in a panic he just floored it to get away...but I mean, he's a Nazi in the KKK according to the media.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

As an extra note, the car that plowed into a crowd of people already had damage on it, you can see in the footage. The driver claimed he was surrounded by protesters, specifically BLM and Antifa, and they were smashing in his windows so in a panic he just floored it to get away...but I mean, he's a Nazi in the KKK according to the media.

I can see it. That's why I want to see facts and make my own extrapolations. Too many people are just running around parroting fake media or forcing people into pigeon holes, when they know sweet fuck all except what they read. No experience or first hand account on their point. Just preconceived ideas and relying on questionable media sources. If you don't condemn 100% against the right, you get the nazi pigeon hole. According to them the other side was just local concerned citizens and antifa wasn't there (I wonder who that was holding their flags, throwing tear gas, spraying pepper spray, wearing helmets and clubs and throwing cans of cement.) Not the local concerned citizens I want to live around. Or the one where the guy that applied for the permit was originally on Obama's staff until the election then he moved into the higher ranks of the supremacists. I'll try fact check that this week.

And that's where my contribution to this thread ends. At least until I hear something absolutely official. I was not a racist before Charlotte and today when I woke, I still wasn't, because I felt to condemn all violent people there. And not just the white supremacists.

 

[George Wallace]

The Chief of the Charlotteville Police gave a statement. Basically, he said it was an Alt Right rally. Proper permits and all. Charlotte's racist Vice Mayor, kept stepping out of his jurisdiction to squash it (that part is mine). The ACLU took it to court for reinstatement, and won. He also said there were two side engaged in violent confrontation and there is video and statements that the melee started when the the white supremacists were attacked by those from the other side. When the chief said, "they had better equipment than we do." He didn't name a side. There's lot's of pictures showing how well equipped the attackers were. No one here can state how many of what side was there. If they give numbers pulled from a source, ten other sources will give different numbers. It will take tons of photos and identification people to say who or how many were there. It's, at this point, a useless stat used to bolster a discussion point. It's another of those things that will have to wait until the official Federal investigation is complete and the results released.

Just an aside and maybe someone heard, did anyone see how many were armed with those horrible 'assault rifles'  : did anyone get shot? Any ND's reported??

If you review some of the links I provide days ago, (there is one over an hour long and another that runs nearly two hours) you will see some of what the Chief is talking about.

 

[Loachman]

Bill Still is an older, retired , well-reputed journalist and author. He has a good network of sources: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrmgazEMvKU

 

[daftandbarmy]

Statue Vandalism: Because pulling down statues will make everything better, like after this one came down, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWxszYK6IPU

 

[jmt18325]

but I mean, he's a Nazi in the KKK according to the media.

Not only the media, but his own father, so....

 

[Rifleman62]

Can't wait till they pull down the Washington Monument. George Washington was a slave owner for 56 years. The monument also has several Christian quotes on stones in/on the bldg.

A good investment now would be owning stock in a street sign company. Just about every town/city in the USA has a Washington street/ave/blvd/etc.

Jefferson is next.

 

[Loachman]

Mark Dice - Al Sharpton Says Thomas Jefferson Memorial Should Be Taken Down! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFt-a2KJcwA

This is the Facebook page for the "Hudson Valley Antifascist Network": https://www.facebook.com/hudsonvalleyantifa/

It includes a reference to Heather Heyer as an "antifascist comrade and IWW member". As she had not been described as such in any news story that I had seen, I conducted a brief search. I can find no confirmation, other suggestion, or even the slightest indication, of membership in or association with Antifa. IWW membership is quite likely, however: http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/20430/heather_heyer_picked_her_sideand_joined_a_long_history_of_white_anticapital. Again, no indication that she was anything other than a decent human being dedicated to a cause. I have some sympathy with parts of that cause, but not with other parts. I've not checked specifically to see if IWW advocates violence, but did not stumble across any.

Another left-wing activist site: https://extranewsfeed.com/in-the-wake-of-white-nationalist-terror-its-time-to-choose-sides-ee514cd3e6b6

I've looked at a few others as well.

Both extremist sides are wrong. Both disgust me. Both are dangerous. Both need to be publicly denounced and dealt with.

 

[Loachman]

Not only the media, but his own father, so....

Definitely not the most upstanding character from any report that I've seen.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

It hasn't....There is a group of less than enlightened wanting to tear down everything "Cornwallis" in Halifax and environs.

Aboriginals were offended with the name of the East Block on Parliament Hill being named after a Father of Confederation, Langevin, because he had good intentions (?) in creating Residential Schools, and the name removed.  Using today's morals, and perhaps "hurt feelings" the 'evil' must be purged.....But we have idolized Louis Riel, no longer a traitor or Rebellion leader, but now a patriot with schools and monuments named after him. 

It is indeed a different world we live in today, than fifty years, one hundred years, two hundred years ago.

History, like everything, is about the perspective of the writer or historian. The study of history is littered with cases where in the past historians have taken a perspective which wasn't in line with the reality of the situation or omitted key elements of peoples lives to pain a better picture. (Agnes McPhail supported eugenics testing on natives, the Canadian army's performance in world war II was generally poor and McNaughton/Crerar were bad generals, etc etc etc). Therein, the argument that any one perspective of history is "right" than is a sign of unenlightenment/poor education whether it be right wing or left wing persons.

The Cornwallis issue is just one such issue of many- Cornwallis, the man, did indeed put a bounty on natives heads as a matter of historical fact. However, that needs to be put into context in relation to the policies of colonial Acadia/Nova Scotia and the raids that native (and US rangers from time to time) had on frontier towns. The issue with the statue isn't "hurt feelings" its more aligned with whether we, in 2017, should "revere" (the perceived purpose of the statue) Cornwallis knowing that he put a bounty on another races head. Would the statue be better suited in the Nova Scotia museum as a display with a historical discussion of Cornwallis the man vice Cornwallis the former historical construct? Maybe? to be honest, more people would see the statue in the museum as where it sits in Halifax is somewhat out of the way unless you're going to the Via rail station (or walking to Pete's Pizza... a true Halifax legend).

As for Riel- Can you lead a rebellion on your own land just because some royal nitwit in England decided to sell the land that they owned by virtue of painting it pink on a map to another nation? See, there's context there and a discussion that needs to happen outside of "hero" or "traitor". The truth normally falls in the middle.

How does this relate to the statues in the US? General Lee, the man, is more complex than the image that was built of him after the war. He was a poor strategic thinker (his decision to invade the north ensured a confederate defeat) and wasn't actually particularly gentlemanly or revered by his soldiers. He was also a racist who supported slavery. the reason why the alt-right people are upset about the statues is that they focus on the "old history" that was taught about General Lee being the embodiment of all that is good and whole in the south. That this wasn't the case is irrelevant- its the feeling that the "others" are trying to destroy their (almost wholely invented) heroes legacy is why they're marching.

So essentially, the protests were to maintain a fake history.