All Things First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, residential schools, etc. (merged)

[daftandbarmy]

What degree of bodily harm is

Frankly I feel pride and relief that our policing profession doesn’t behave the way seen in places like Russia. would the Russians go in and crack skulls to save a statue? Sure. Is that in line with our values? Doubtful.

What degree of bodily harm is a statue worth? I’m on a public order unit. How far would you have us go in the moment to stop people pulling a statue down and effect immediate arrest? How much injury are you willing to risk to me or the men and women to my right and left over it? Just how heavy-handed would you have us be? Personally I see a huge different between something like pulling down a statue that’s easily remade, versus a riot that’s destroying businesses and institutions, setting fires, etc.

Right now we have a societal tension that’s causing a lot of pressure. Do we want to make a pressure cooker out of it, or instead let that pressure bleed off? Given the underlying issues in all of this, I’m not sure sending a bunch of (mostly white) police in to suppress dissent, protests, and relatively minor vandalism by force necessarily serves the larger strategic objectives of our government. But that’s just me.

Amen.

The best part about people dragging down a statue is that you get to arrest dirt bags for vandalism. Then replace/ fix the statue.

FWIW, I was never happy with the Capt. Cook statue in Victoria. It's made of fibreglass FFS!

Maybe they'll reaplace it with a proper, indestructible bronze monolith. With an anti-tampering switch connected to a couple of Claymore mines

 

[Colin Parkinson]

With a voice recorder saying "Eff you scumbag, my ghost will revenge me!"

 

[The Bread Guy]

With credit where due to Red Dawn ...

With a voice recorder saying "Eff you scumbag, my ghost will revenge me!"

 

[Eaglelord17]

What degree of bodily harm is

Frankly I feel pride and relief that our policing profession doesn’t behave the way seen in places like Russia. would the Russians go in and crack skulls to save a statue? Sure. Is that in line with our values? Doubtful.

What degree of bodily harm is a statue worth? I’m on a public order unit. How far would you have us go in the moment to stop people pulling a statue down and effect immediate arrest? How much injury are you willing to risk to me or the men and women to my right and left over it? Just how heavy-handed would you have us be? Personally I see a huge different between something like pulling down a statue that’s easily remade, versus a riot that’s destroying businesses and institutions, setting fires, etc.

Right now we have a societal tension that’s causing a lot of pressure. Do we want to make a pressure cooker out of it, or instead let that pressure bleed off? Given the underlying issues in all of this, I’m not sure sending a bunch of (mostly white) police in to suppress dissent, protests, and relatively minor vandalism by force necessarily serves the larger strategic objectives of our government. But that’s just me.

I ask that the police enforce the laws, especially if they see them being broken in front of their faces. People are starting to believe the law doesn't apply to them just because their personal social issue is popular at the moment. They are literally being taught that as long as they are 'peaceful' they can act as they please. As a society we need to make sure they understand they break the law, there is immediate consequences. We have rule of law for a reason, go to your local officials if you want something changed, but we need to set a hardline that breaking the law to effect your personal social goals will not be accepted.

As to how much force the police need to use, that is all dependent on how the criminals react. If they are peaceful and accept being arrested freely then there is no issue. If they decide to resist and fight back, then as much force as is required to subdue them needs to be used.

Risk of injury is part of the job you signed up for, enforcing the laws are literally the core component of your profession. The Governments strategic objectives mean nothing to me, the law is being broken, uphold it.

 

[Halifax Tar]

What degree of bodily harm is

Frankly I feel pride and relief that our policing profession doesn’t behave the way seen in places like Russia. would the Russians go in and crack skulls to save a statue? Sure. Is that in line with our values? Doubtful.

What degree of bodily harm is a statue worth? I’m on a public order unit. How far would you have us go in the moment to stop people pulling a statue down and effect immediate arrest? How much injury are you willing to risk to me or the men and women to my right and left over it? Just how heavy-handed would you have us be? Personally I see a huge different between something like pulling down a statue that’s easily remade, versus a riot that’s destroying businesses and institutions, setting fires, etc.

Right now we have a societal tension that’s causing a lot of pressure. Do we want to make a pressure cooker out of it, or instead let that pressure bleed off? Given the underlying issues in all of this, I’m not sure sending a bunch of (mostly white) police in to suppress dissent, protests, and relatively minor vandalism by force necessarily serves the larger strategic objectives of our government. But that’s just me.

I guess the question is when do the police start swinging sticks and restoring order ? Honest question, you're the SME; I count stuff for a living.

To me the totem pole burning is the proverbial canary in the coal mine, if the government cant/wont protect order others will.

 

[OldSolduer]

I have a question for y'all:

During the Colton Bouchie murder trial the term "settler law" was brought up. To me this indicates that some view us Caucasians as "settlers" when we were in fact born here. The term "colonizers" has also come up.

Don't even get me started on the "We are all immigrants" train of thought.

Am I being a bit too sensitive? Food for thought.

 

[Quirky]

No it’s bullshit that someone is more Canadian because of the colour of their skin. This is the new Canada though where only whites are racists.

 

[mariomike]

Risk of injury is part of the job you signed up for, enforcing the laws are literally the core component of your profession.

I guess sometimes citizens take protection of statues into their own hands. Police try to prevent both sides from killing each other.

These statues coming down, one way or the other, remind me of the 12-foot bronze Texas Ranger "One riot, one Ranger" statue.

It has been removed and put into indefinite storage.

Even the 8-foot bronze Kate Smith "God Bless America" statue is not immune. It too has been removed and placed in storage.

Should some statues be removed? If so, which ones?

How can those left standing be protected?

At what cost to taxpayers?

I guarantee you’ll see way more tax dollars spent on a couple injured police than on cleaning and repairing a statue.

If statues can't be protected, what to do with them? Pay for indefinite storage?

 

[daftandbarmy]

I have a question for y'all:

During the Colton Bouchie murder trial the term "settler law" was brought up. To me this indicates that some view us Caucasians as "settlers" when we were in fact born here. The term "colonizers" has also come up.

Don't even get me started on the "We are all immigrants" train of thought.

Am I being a bit too sensitive? Food for thought.

Although a widely used term in the media, and amongst certain elements of academia and activism, this is not a thing in mainstream business or government beyond the usual 'flavour of the month' lip service.

Everyone knows this is an important subject but in terms of changing the way the world fundamentally works these days, it really isn't.

What it is good for, apparently, is getting attention

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I have a question for y'all:

During the Colton Bouchie murder trial the term "settler law" was brought up. To me this indicates that some view us Caucasians as "settlers" when we were in fact born here. The term "colonizers" has also come up.

Don't even get me started on the "We are all immigrants" train of thought.

Am I being a bit too sensitive? Food for thought.

(long post ahead...bear with me)

As a First Gen Canadian, I find the whole "you're all immigrants settlers/colonizers!" trope a bit much.

My parents came here as children in the 1950s and were told they weren't welcome here by many of the same folks that facilitated these atrocities in the residential schools. My father had the shit beat out of him by a nun in grade school for not speaking English as well as being left-handed. He was later targeted by a predatory priest in high school, but was lucky enough to project enough confidence to have this creep think twice about it. My mother was give similar treatment, but was "tolerated" because she was a Scot. Their parents were poor, blue collar, and faced discrimination for not being "Canadian" enough.

My family cannot trace roots in Canada any further than that. They weren't at the reigns of power in 1876 any more than they were in 1956. We have an axe to grind with the Catholic Church too for the abuses my parents suffered, even if there aren't any mass graves outside their schools.

And of course both the church and the Canadian Government are relishing this finger pointing. JT is quick to give platitudes akin to...."We're all colonizers, and we all have a responsibility in righting the injustices and atrocities that have been committed against our Indigenous peoples." I will concede that this is true in the sense that systemic racism is just that, systemic; and plays towards a greater intolerance of different peoples. However, I don't hold the purse strings to fund things like clean drinking water, improving conditions on reservations, providing support and funding to locating these mass graves, etc.

My forbearers and I didn't set policy for the GoC and I cannot provide tangible solutions to promote reconciliation and healing, as I don't have a tax revenue in the Trillions or my own gendarme. Its important to note that the TRC's Calls to Action are not addressed to the individual Canadian, but to our governments and institutions. I plan on doing my part with my vote, but that is about as far as I can go with setting government policy.

Much like our government's policies on Climate Action force me to pay a tax every month and using a reusable coffee mug has done fuck all in preventing a literal fire in the ocean, my solidarity and support is all I can give in this situation. Demonizing me based on my ancestry (which, talk about colonization to a Highland Scot or a Sicilian...) only serves to alienate me from your cause. My neighbour is Huron and has more hatred towards the Iroquois than they do to your average Canadian.

While we fight and name call and tear down statues and totem poles... the Catholic Church and the Government Of Canada are sneaking out the side door and absolving themselves of their role in this genocide. That role is much bigger than yours or mine.

just my $0.02

 

[YZT580]

Top-down federalism right there - and not just with this set of issues. Well summed up.

If only someone could have warned the government ....

 

[YZT580]

very simple: for whatever reason, someone, somewhere is masterminding a whole lot of manure agitating and the 3rd estate has jumped right in to ensure that the advertising revenue keeps on coming

 

[Good2Golf]

While we fight and name call and tear down statues and totem poles... the Catholic Church and the Government Of Canada are sneaking out the side door and absolving themselves of their role in this genocide. That role is much bigger than yours or mine.

Yup, especially the Government that has been in power for, you know…100% of the time since the TRC released its report in December 2015.

While the PM doesn’t seem to receive much challenge reporting from the MSM (and some credit counts intent for future action as a ‘complete’ [eg. CBC ‘Beyond 94’ rates Item 43 - Adopt UNDRIP, complete] which we won’t know is truly completed for several years yet), Team Orange points out his and his government’s lack of substantive action:

REALITY CHECK: Justin Trudeau Failing the TRC

In the wake of the discovery of 215 children found buried at the Kamloops Indian Residential School, Canadians want to know what the government is doing.

Well, the reality is the Prime Minister isn’t doing very much:

In the last six years, the Trudeau government has completed just 10 of the 94 recommendations from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. That’s just 10.6%.

For years, the government has had recommendations like TRC #75 that sets out a path to help restore dignity to Indigenous children who were buried far from their families:

1. We call upon the federal government to work with provincial, territorial, and municipal governments, churches, Aboriginal communities, former residential school students, and current landowners to develop and implement strategies and procedures for the ongoing identification, documentation, maintenance, commemoration, and protection of residential school cemeteries or other sites at which residential school children were buried. This is to include the provision of appropriate memorial ceremonies and commemorative markers to honour the deceased children.

But it wasn’t the Liberal government who made this discovery at the Kamloops Residential School possible – it was a grant from the B.C. government through the Pathways to Health program.

Maybe the PM and his government would have more time to act on this and other TRC recommendations if they’d stop fighting residential school survivors in court and stop challenging a human rights tribunal finding that they discriminated against Indigenous kids in the child welfare system.

Children and their families deserve better.

 

[The Bread Guy]

... REALITY CHECK: Justin Trudeau Failing the TRC

Good reminder -- now let's see what the other parties offer up as an alternative this fall.

Here's what Google pops up searching for "Indigenous" on Team Orange's and Team Blue's main web pages as of this post - search for "reconciliation" results also here & here.

 

[MARS]

The Governments strategic objectives mean nothing to me, the law is being broken, uphold it.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....oh wait...you're serious.

You must not remember the Caledonia land dispute in Ontario from 15 years ago.

Grand River land dispute - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The events that are happening now pale in comparison to what happened back then and the associated degree of restrain the OPP showed - stemming from provincial government edicts at the time.

I don't think we anywhere close to Caledonia-levels of violence and disruption yet... and I wouldn't expect anything to happen until we are, and maybe not even then....

Government strategic objectives may not matter to you, but they do matter.

 

[mariomike]

The Governments strategic objectives mean nothing to me, the law is being broken, uphold it.

I think the days of sending in the 7th Cavalry are long gone.

 

[lenaitch]

I ask that the police enforce the laws, especially if they see them being broken in front of their faces. People are starting to believe the law doesn't apply to them just because their personal social issue is popular at the moment. They are literally being taught that as long as they are 'peaceful' they can act as they please. As a society we need to make sure they understand they break the law, there is immediate consequences. We have rule of law for a reason, go to your local officials if you want something changed, but we need to set a hardline that breaking the law to effect your personal social goals will not be accepted.

As to how much force the police need to use, that is all dependent on how the criminals react. If they are peaceful and accept being arrested freely then there is no issue. If they decide to resist and fight back, then as much force as is required to subdue them needs to be used.

Risk of injury is part of the job you signed up for, enforcing the laws are literally the core component of your profession. The Governments strategic objectives mean nothing to me, the law is being broken, uphold it.

That type of logic would expect a high speed pursuit through a playground because somebody blew a stop sign.

The precursor to many of these vandalism events - a public protest - is a legal activity. To wade into that only invites trouble and escalation. The role of civilian law enforcement is to keep the peace and enforce the law. It makes little sense to flagrantly ignore or enflame the degradation of one while trying to do the other. Arrests can and do come later but they don't always make the media.

It becomes a matter of risk and reward. The police don't operate in a world of acceptable casualty numbers, on either side, certainly not to prevent or arrest for a property crime. If you look closely at many of these protests, there are elderly and children in the lines. Whether that is simply a community coming together or a deliberate tactic I'll leave to individual interpretation.

Images of crowd or dissent control in places like Russia, China, or even the US south in the 60s, might look decisive, but there are broader elements of those societies that I don't think we want to look fondly upon.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....oh wait...you're serious.

You must not remember the Caledonia land dispute in Ontario from 15 years ago.

Grand River land dispute - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The events that are happening now pale in comparison to what happened back then and the associated degree of restrain the OPP showed - stemming from provincial government edicts at the time.

I don't think we anywhere close to Caledonia-levels of violence and disruption yet... and I wouldn't expect anything to happen until we are, and maybe not even then....

Government strategic objectives may not matter to you, but they do matter.

And Caledonia was informed by Ipperwash, where a protestor was shot a killed. I maintain that was caused by a command failure, but I'll leave it at that, but they will do all in their power to avoid another Ipperwash. I didn't particularly agree with all of actions taken by the police at Caledonia, but at the end of the day, nobody died or was seriously injured. Was anything ultimately solved? I doubt it, but that's not law enforcement's role.

It's one thing for the police to go in and bust heads for something that is clearly illegal like, say, a brawl between rival bikes gangs in a bar. It's completely another when there is a claim of right, one that the government might ultimately agree with. First Nation civil disobedience is ultimately unwinnable from a law enforcement perspective; damned if you do and damned if you don't.

The broader strategic issue cannot be ignored. A protest can spawn a blockade an entire country away. And, although nobody likes to talk about it, the issue of firepower is always in the background. There is no absolute clarity whether the protestors had access to firearms at Ipperwash, and the police didn't have access to the scene (the park) until about a week later. I believe it was a similar situation at Oka. I was privy to a surveillance video of an Oka 'sympathy' blockage that clearly, to my untrained ear, included the sound of heavy machine gun fire.

 

[Brad Sallows]

As long as the rules for civil disobedience apply to all, equally, there is no reason to get too worked up about trivial property crimes, no matter how symbolically insulting.

 

[Jarnhamar]

As long as the rules for civil disobedience apply to all, equally, there is no reason to get too worked up about trivial property crimes, no matter how symbolically insulting.

RCMP criticized for inaction after mob violently attacks Mi’kmaq lobster facilities

Nova Scotia RCMP are under fire for failing to stop an angry mob from attacking two rural storage facilities holding Mi'kmaq lobster, throwing rocks, setting a van ablaze and restraining fishermen in one of the most violent confrontations yet in a dispute over the fishery.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

This is why I liked working with the Haisla

Chief Councillor Crystal Smith offers this statement in support of finding healthy ways forward:

We have all been responding in our own ways to the growing number of finds at the sites of residential schools across Canada.

It has lead to a lot of heartache, shock, and anger, which are entirely valid feelings over these discoveries.

Today, I merely ask our Haisla members to reach out to find healthy outlets for these feelings. Our Health Centre staff can provide resources to help you along, and there are toll-free phone lines as well.

Finding healthy ways to address these traumas will be the best path to healing.

We should ensure that the damage to property that has been reported in other communities and in other Nations does not happen here. Intentionally lighting buildings on fire, including churches, puts the community, our members, and our First Responders at risk. I trust our members in Kitamaat Village will continue to choose positive actions over destruction.

Also they constantly look for future opportunities for their people.

Cedar LNG – A generational opportunity for the Haisla First Nation | BOE Report

It is no secret that the road to FID for an LNG project or any Energy project in Canada is a lengthy one. However, several positive developments bode well for the Cedar LNG project backed by the Haisla Nation. Cedar LNG received approval for Cedar LNG 1-located on Haisla Nation-owned land in...

boereport.com