All Things First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, residential schools, etc. (merged)

[bdog]

part of the issue is that many First Nations not believe that they surrendered their independence either to the UK or Canada and therefore need agreement which should be abided by the government.

 

[Jacqueline]

That still doesn't explain why certain cultures are poorer than others. This fact is confusing. I'm completely baffled by it. It is true.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

That still doesn't explain why certain cultures are poorer than others. This fact is confusing. I'm completely baffled by it. It is true.

How do you figure?  By all native accounts, there are some reserves and communities that thrive and do well.  When faced with a lack of success, the rest of us don't get to navel gaze and say "the Fed isn't doing enough for me". 
Assess, plan, act.  Keep it simple. 

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Here's a report on poverty released just recently by AFN.  I double dare you to read it!

OK, I've looked it over.  I'll stipulate to all the facts.  So: what prevents an aboriginal person or family from pursuing and attaining the approximate standard of living as the average non-aboriginal person or family in the same region or going to where the opportunities are greater?

 

[Jacqueline]

I was talking majority. If you're really interested, I can get some links tomorrow about the poverty thing.

Like UberCree said, suicide rates are higher in Aboriginals, than any culture in Canada. Yes, they also are high in the Chinese under those circumstances. These are tragedies, but when someone mentions something like Aboriginal suicide, I can't automatically associate it with the suicide rates of every group of people. I took a trip to Nain, Labrador last January and during my stay, 2 suicides have occurred in the small town. Including my sister's boyfriend, and an ex-military man.

So, what these people are going through seems to be an issue of lost purpose. And why is it occurring in Ab.'s? Even the genius asks his questions.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Yes, they also are high in the Chinese under those circumstances.

You missed my point.  I am not aware that there is any sort of significance between poverty and the Chinese.  My point was that they seem to overcome adversity and do what they have to in order to better themselves, and ultimately become credible and successful.

 

[Kirkhill]

Do the 6 Nations (and the Cree for that matter) accept the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court?

In fact some of you have some real problems with Canada and our judicial system.  Maybe you should think twice about calling yourselves patriots if you disagree with the very foundation of Canada's constitution ... that recognizes Aboriginal rights to sovereignty (nationhood) and treaty rights.  Some of you need to suck it up and move on perhaps. 

So 6 Nations and the Cree recognize the Supreme Court and the Constitution?  They are Canadians? So for them Canada is a country of nations?  Are the 6 Nations a nation of 6 nations within the nation of First Nations within the nation of Canadians?  Can they make treaties with foreign powers?

 

[Jacqueline]

You missed my point.  I am not aware that there is any sort of significance between poverty and the Chinese.  My point was that they seem to overcome adversity and do what they have to in order to better themselves, and ultimately become credible and successful.

OK point taken.

In my opinion, they ( like every normal human being ) overcome adversity alot better because they feel that they have a purpose. In my opinion.
Obviously, it's not easy taking it from the bottom to the top when a person's friends are dieing or always intoxicated or slightly faded.
Just one problem among many.

 

[niner domestic]

Kirkhill, why don' t you read about the 6 Nations yourself.  (pay very close attention to the section on the Warrior Society) http://www.sixnations.org/  I believe the website answers your questions.   

Edited so that link would work. 

 

[probum non poenitet]

Wow, free stuff?  Someone tell me where I can go to get free stuff and rolls of money!!!   

... why, your nearest Canadian Forces Recruiting Centre, of course! ... 

 

[Kirkhill]

Our lands were never conquered by outsiders. We never consented to American or Canadian authority over our territories.

http://sixnations.buffnet.net/Culture/

The word "Iroquois" is not a Haudenosaunee word. It is derived from a French version of a Huron Indian named that was applied to our ancestors and it was considered derogatory, meaning "Black Snakes."

http://sixnations.buffnet.net/Culture/?article=who_we_are

Thanks for the link niner domestic.  I especially found the information on the hijacking by the Warrior Societies interesting, right enough.

And as to my questions, I put many of them up as rhetorical.  I was under the impression that the Confederacy did not recognize Canadian (or US) suzerainty and I still understand the situation that way.  That would leave them open to making treaties with foreign powers other than Canada and the US.  An interesting situation if the Warrior Societies succeed in subsuming the "traditionals" and the Grand Council of Chiefs.

Also, given that the Iroquois name, like the words Eskimo and Dogrib, is a derogatory name given by the Huron enemy would suggest that it might be difficult to create Gordon Campbell's Nation of First Nations.  My understanding of history is that the Confederacy exists north of the Great Lakes for two reasons:  the Algonkian Hurons were obliterated, largely by Confederacy action, and the vacant lands were granted to the Confederacy by the Crown after the Revolutionary War.

Am I reading that the same way that you do?

 

[niner domestic]

The Hurons  (they prefer to be called Wendats as Huron is another derogatory title meaning rough from the French word, hure) were part of the Iroquoian linguistic group, so upon their defeat in the wars of 1648-49, they were absorbed into the 6 nations confederacy.  Hardly the stuff the history books like to tell.  I'm not suggesting that the wars were not brutal but the land grab fairy tale is just that, a fairy tale as the Iroquois had already taken up settlement in the area we now know as Ontario/New York.  (not their fault their territory fell along the 49th parallel.) The whole English/French thing happen almost a century later, long after the Huron ended up as part of the confederacy.  Brebeuf wrote about them:

I am glad to find that this is a language common to some twelve other nations, all sedentary and numerous. These are the Conkhandeerrhonons, Khionontaterrhonons (Tobacco), Atinouandaronks (Neutrals), Sonontoerrhonons (Senecas), Onontaerrhonons (Onandagas), Ouioenrhonons (Cayugas), Onoiochronons (Oneidas), Agnierrhonons (Mohawks), Andastoerrhonons (Andastes), Scahentoarrhonons, Rhiierrhonons (Eries), and Ahouenrochrhonons. The Hurons are friendly to all except the Sonontoerrhonons (Senecas), Onontaerrhonons (Onandagas), Ouioenrhonons (Cayugas), Onoiochrhonons (Oneidas) and Agnierrhonons (Mohawks), all of whom group under the name Iroquois. And yet they are already at peace with the Sonontoerrhonons (Senecas) since they defeated them last year in springtime. Delegates from the entire area have gone to Sonontoen to ratify this peace, and it is said that the Onontaerrhonons, Ouioenrhonons, Onoiochronons and Agnierrhonons wish to become parties thereto.
http://www.mohicanpress.com/mo08016.html

There is an urban myth that the US constitution is modelled after the Great Law of Peace.  I've only had the honour of having heard the great law read out loud once, by Jake Thomas and it took 3 days. It was pretty impressive.  I have no doubt that those who follow the great law, will deal effectively with the warrior's society in due time. 

 

[a_majoor]

There is an urban myth that the US constitution is modelled after the Great Law of Peace.  I've only had the honour of having heard the great law read out loud once, by Jake Thomas and it took 3 days. It was pretty impressive.  I have no doubt that those who follow the great law, will deal effectively with the warrior's society in due time. 

The American Constitution had a lot more to do with Enlightenment philosophy, English Common Law and a nod to the Res Publica Roma than anything else.

As for the last line, if our elected officials were to enforce the Criminal Code of Canada, the Warrior's Society would be far less of an issue for all of us.

 

[Kirkhill]

Thanks for the continuing lessons niner.  I was always under the impression that the Wendat (Huron) were part of the Algonkian language group along with the Cree.

Cheers, Chris.

 

[niner domestic]

a_majoor: As I said, I consider it to be an Urban Legend with some coincidental imagery to the Constitution, however, some authors believe it to be true.  Perhaps if you read the Great Law, you'd see the connections yourself.  Best translation is the Handsome Lake one or Jake Thomas. 


Iroquois and the U.S. Constitution

By the time the Declaration of Independence was signed, the Iroquois had practiced their own egalitarian government for hundreds of years. The Iroquois reputation for diplomacy and eloquence reveals they had securely evolved a sophisticated political system founded on reason, not on mere power. Accounts of the "noble savage" living in "natural freedom" had inspired European theorists John Locke and Jean-Jacques Rousseau to expound ideas that had ignited the American Revolution and helped shape the new direction of government.

But the Founding Fathers found their best working model for their new government, not in the writings of Europeans, but through their direct contact with the Iroquois League; for the Great Law of Peace provided both model and incentive to transform thirteen separate colonies into the United States.

George Washington, after a visit to the Iroquois, expressed "great excitement" over the Iroquois" two houses and Grand Council. Ben Franklin wrote, "It would be strange if ignorant savages could execute a union that persisted ages and appears indissoluble; yet like union is impractical for twelve colonies to whom it is more necessary and advantageous."

At Cornell's conference, Dr. Donald Grinde, Jr. of Gettysburg College presented evidence that Thomas Jefferson adopted the specific symbols of the Peacemaker legend. The Tree of Peace became the Tree of Liberty; the Eagle, clutching a bundle of thirteen arrows, became the symbol of the new American government.

Grinde also brought the revelation that "one of the framers, John Rutledge of South Carolina, chair of the drafting committee, read portions of Iroquois Law to members of the committee. He asked them to consider a philosophy coming directly from this American soil."

The Great Law of Peace laid out a government "of the people, by the people and for the people" with three branches. The Onondaga, the Firekeepers, are the heart of the Confederacy. Similarly, the U.S. presidency forms an executive branch.

The League's legislative branch is in two parts: Mohawk and Seneca are Elder Brothers who form the upper house, while Oneida and Cayuga are Younger Brothers, similar to the Senate and House of the United States Congress. The Iroquois" equivalent of a Supreme Court is the Women's Councils, which settle disputes and judge legal violations.

From: http://www.championtrees.org/yarrow/greatlaw.htm

 

[UberCree]

I have read and heard some interesting ideas on the 'influence' theory (Great Law influence on the U.S. Constitution) over the years from some very informed people.  It makes sense to me ... soft power in action. 

 

[Kirkhill]

The Great Law of Peace laid out a government "of the people, by the people and for the people" with three branches. The Onondaga, the Firekeepers, are the heart of the Confederacy. Similarly, the U.S. presidency forms an executive branch.

The League's legislative branch is in two parts: Mohawk and Seneca are Elder Brothers who form the upper house, while Oneida and Cayuga are Younger Brothers, similar to the Senate and House of the United States Congress. The Iroquois" equivalent of a Supreme Court is the Women's Councils, which settle disputes and judge legal violations.

I didn't want to be tendentious but this begs dissection by analogy.

For analogy to be exact then applying the Great Law of Peace's government "of the people, by the people and for the people"  would result in The English, the Firekeepers at the heart of the Confederacy and would form the executive branch.

The Scots and the Quebecois, the Elder Brothers would form the Senate while First Nations and Pre-Trudeau immigrants as the Younger Brothers would form the Commons.  Post-Trudeau immigrants would be absorbed into the Confederacy the same way that the Wendat were absorbed.  The really interesting bit would be having the Supreme Court appointed by the Council for the Status of Women.

With all due respect, given the division of roles based on National origin and gender, it seems that the Great Law is the antithesis of a democratic code.

Cheers, Chris.

 

[niner domestic]

The only reason I am still not convinced it's not an urban legend is that Handsome Lake and his Code (Great Law translation) appeared around the time of the US revolution as well as Lake was heavily influence by the church.  Since I do not speak any of the Haudosaunee languages fluently, I can only rely on this and Jake Thomas' translation to read/hear the Great Law.  I can not draw a comparison to Lake's version (which has been touted to be heavily influenced with Christian doctrine which he in turn, created his own religion) to the content and meaning of the original Great Law spoken in its original language.  So the question is, did the Great Law influence the Constitution or did the Constitution influence Lake's translation?   http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/iro/parker/cohl002.htm

The Mik'maq have a similar problem with the translations of Silas Rand the Baptist missionary, of their Catholic Missal.

 

[rmacqueen]

From the CD Howe Institute http://www.cdhowe.org/pdf/backgrounder_66.pdf

In a forthcoming Commentary, Drost and Richards review evidence, drawn from the 1996 census,
about incomes among off- and on-reserve aboriginals. The median 1995 income among the onreserve-
identity aboriginal population was $8,900; the analogous figure for off-reserve aboriginals
was $12,400 — 39 percent higher (yet still far below $19,400, the 1995 median among
nonaboriginal Canadians).

As for the AFN report, all stats given there are verifiable from other sources and are not strictly from AFN studies.

 

[zipperhead_cop]

From the CD Howe Institute http://www.cdhowe.org/pdf/backgrounder_66.pdf

As for the AFN report, all stats given there are verifiable from other sources and are not strictly from AFN studies.

Okay, maybe I need to have someone explain what is the point of being on a reservation?  I thought it was to pursue a traditionally native lifestyle?  So if you are hunting and fishing and living off the land, why would you need an income that is comparable to that of the rest of Canadian society?