All Things Negligent Discharge (merged)

[SeanNewman]

SFB,


I'm not talking about speculation, I'm talking about you saying NDs are taken far more seriously than ever, and me saying that at one particular training institution they are taken less seriously.


Not in the sense that people don't see them as a mistake, but they are not going the path of charges.


PM me if you want to discuss further.

 

[Nuggs]

I didn't notice any differences between the Commissionaires and the military instructors knowledge of the handling drills.

I actually thought the Commissionaires sometimes made better weapons instructors.

I have to completely agree with balls on this one.

I found during our weapons training we would randomly be assigned one of 6-7 different instructors and allthough the level of
knowledge was very consistent across the lot, their ability to actually instruct varied greatly.

In general we (the platoon) did find the instruction provided by the civilians contracted by the commissionaires (they were careful not to be called commissionaires, they said they only worked for them), to be far superior to the instruction provided by their military counterparts.

In my opinion this was partly due to an experience gap. Allthough they all had more than adequate knowledge of the weapon and its drills, the Military personnel were all reserve MCpl / Sgt, vs the "commissionaires" being all 15-20 years plus reg force retires. No this isn't a reservist flame, just pointing out that there was likely a huge gap in teaching experience within those two groups.

Note about speaking for the platoon above. Normally I wouldn't, but we all added our dissatisfaction about it specifically on our end course report.

 

[ballz]

In general we (the platoon) did find the instruction provided by the civilians contracted by the commissionaires (they were careful not to be called commissionaires, they said they only worked for them), to be far superior to the instruction provided by their military counterparts.

In my opinion this was partly due to an experience gap. Allthough they all had more than adequate knowledge of the weapon and its drills, the Military personnel were all reserve MCpl / Sgt, vs the "commissionaires" being all 15-20 years plus reg force retires. No this isn't a reservist flame, just pointing out that there was likely a huge gap in teaching experience within those two groups.

Note about speaking for the platoon above. Normally I wouldn't, but we all added our dissatisfaction about it specifically on our end course report.

I never knew of any of our military instructors being reserve or reg force. I assumed they were all reg force. I know our course staff who used to be part of the weapons staff for years is reg force.

Our platoon didn't comment on the commissionaires vs. military thing but we commented on the rifle theory vs rifle handling aspect.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I think the rifle-handing curriculum at St. Jean was *waaaay* too heavy with handling drills and not nearly enough theory about the actual rifle and how it works. People couldn't remember the drills the day after the handling test because they just didn't understand why it was important to remove the magazine before cycling the action on an unload, etc. We had 3 NDs on my course of I think 45 that went into the field for the last 2 weeks.

Wow. You mean to say that they skate over the 'magazine fed, gas operated, closed bolt etc etc etc' stuff? 3 NDs out of 45 troops in a final exercise on a recruit training course is borderline ridiculous, no? Time was, people like me were the 'lowest common denominator', not the young keeners just out of training.  :nod:

 

[Kalatzi]

Back in the days before fire was discovered
We had an an eval MWO who would command usw to grab our C1 from the racks in the company room

Safety precations  - First thing on picking up a weapon Assumed

Stop screwing around - form up form up etc

Attention - Present arms - fire!

Usual result was 2-3 booms out of platoon - since blanks had been slipped into a sample

IMHO has to be instinctive -

We were PRES

The other problem was folding the safety matches and disabling the safety allowing full auto on a C! but  thats another post

 

[ballz]

Wow. You mean to say that they skate over the 'magazine fed, gas operated, closed bolt etc etc etc' stuff?

Errr... kinda... I wasn't really talking about the hard "info" about the weapon. They went over all that and that's the kind of thing that if you want to know, you can read it. I'm talking more like explaining what happens inside the rifle when you pull the trigger. How the rifle actually works. The best comparison I can make is explaining to someone how an engine works in a car.... and to a lot of the people who have never touched a rifle in their life, they think the rifle is just as complicated as an engine.

3 NDs out of 45 troops in a final exercise on a recruit training course is borderline ridiculous, no?

Yes, that's exactly my point. I mean, if they know the drills and do the drills properly, this would never happen (2 NDs happened during an unload, 1 ND happened during a load), and so I guess that's why the emphasis is on the drills and memorizing them. But, after we did our tests at the range, we never handled the firearms for another 6 or 7 weeks. By that time, those who had only remembered the drills and not actually understood them, had forgotten them. And IMO that's why we had 3 NDs...

Time was, people like me were the 'lowest common denominator', not the young keeners just out of training.  :nod:

I don't know what you mean, or whether you are calling me an idiot or just commenting on the 3 NDs thinger. Could you clarify please?

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Yes, that's exactly my point. I mean, if they know the drills and do the drills properly, this would never happen (2 NDs happened during an unload, 1 ND happened during a load), and so I guess that's why the emphasis is on the drills and memorizing them. But, after we did our tests at the range, we never handled the firearms for another 6 or 7 weeks. By that time, those who had only remembered the drills and not actually understood them, had forgotten them. And IMO that's why we had 3 NDs...

Help me out for a second. How could someone "who had only remembered the drills" have "forgotten them" as they had their ND. Either they remembered or they forgot.  Did all of your platoon go through the same training?  If so, how can you make comparisons on training methodologies?

Please note that I may agree with you that the inner workings of the weapon should be taught, but I am not convinced that someone not removing the magazine during an unload is due to not being taught forward/backward action et al.

I will ask you this.  During your weapon handling classes did you have magazines on your weapons for IAs and stoppages:

  a.  all the time

  b.  most of the time

  c.  some of the time

  d. rarely

Cheers
T2B

 

[Haggis]

In my opinion this was partly due to an experience gap. Allthough they all had more than adequate knowledge of the weapon and its drills, the Military personnel were all reserve MCpl / Sgt, vs the "commissionaires" being all 15-20 years plus reg force retires. No this isn't a reservist flame, just pointing out that there was likely a huge gap in teaching experience within those two groups.

And just how do you know how much expereince the Res F instructor does/doesn't have.  S/he could be ex Reg F or have multiple tours, maybe even an ex "ninja". 

All instructors at St. Jean (Reg F or Res F) are required to pass the same GMTI - IT course to certify them as being capable to instruct recruits in accordance with the standard.  No pass- no teaching.

FYI almost a quarter of the instructors at CFLRS are Res F.

 

[ballz]

Help me out for a second. How could someone "who had only remembered the drills" have "forgotten them" as they had their ND. Either they remembered or they forgot.  Did all of your platoon go through the same training?  If so, how can you make comparisons on training methodologies?

They remembered the drills during weapons classes, did the tests (handling and range), passed the tests, never had to do anything with a rifle other then carry it around for the next 6 or 7 weeks, and then went out in the field with them for 2 weeks... It was very noticeable that a lot of the platoon had forgotten what to do with a rifle in that 6 week span...

Yes, all the platoon went through the same training, and no, I'm not qualified to be discussing this. But, I actually learned about firearms from my old man and had good knowledge of how they worked beforehand. I didn't forget my handling drills and I attribute that to the fact that the sequences made complete sense to me.

It's not really different than anything else though. I think many people would agree that "understanding" something is a lot more efficient way of learning than just "remembering." It's easier to forget something that you remembered than to misunderstand something you once understood..

I am not convinced that someone not removing the magazine during an unload is due to not being taught forward/backward action et al.

Why not? I asked one of the guys that screwed up his unload about it. I explained some (simple) stuff to him and he looked at me and said "I don't know any of that..."

I will ask you this.  During your weapon handling classes did you have magazines on your weapons for IAs and stoppages:

  a.  all the time

  b.  most of the time

  c.  some of the time

  d. rarely

Pretty much all the time. The mags were required for most of the drills so we'd put in a set number of dummy rounds and start doing the drills as the instructor called out the commands / stoppages / etc.

 

[OldSolduer]

Does anyone remember the old adage when an instructor finished a weapons class? It goes something like this:

"You've been a pretty good class and picked up on this lesson well, BUT you REQUIRE MORE PRACTICE."

SO, I ask you this: What is preventing a candidate from asking his section NCO to run him through the drills, coaching them so to speak?

Repetition is the key to retention when it comes to handling DRILLS on weapons.

 

[Journeyman]

....never had to do anything with a rifle other then carry it around for the next 6 or 7 weeks...

Did you not perform safety drills each time the weapon was picked-up or put down?

 

[Kat Stevens]

Well, err, yeah, of course, y'know, obviously. But other than that not so much.

 

[PMedMoe]

I haven't the slightest idea how a car engine works (well, okay, not totally true) but I still know how to do simple maneuvers.  Start, stop, turn.... 

 

[the 48th regulator]

Just a quick question, for the benefit of the us that were in the army with Moses, but are candidates not allowed to keep their rifles in the shacks at St. Jean anymore?  What I mean overnight, when they are on their own time.


dileas

tess

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

They remembered the drills during weapons classes, did the tests (handling and range), passed the tests, never had to do anything with a rifle other then carry it around for the next 6 or 7 weeks, and then went out in the field with them for 2 weeks... It was very noticeable that a lot of the platoon had forgotten what to do with a rifle in that 6 week span...

Yes, all the platoon went through the same training, and no, I'm not qualified to be discussing this. But, I actually learned about firearms from my old man and had good knowledge of how they worked beforehand. I didn't forget my handling drills and I attribute that to the fact that the sequences made complete sense to me.

It's not really different than anything else though. I think many people would agree that "understanding" something is a lot more efficient way of learning than just "remembering." It's easier to forget something that you remembered than to misunderstand something you once understood..

Why not? I asked one of the guys that screwed up his unload about it. I explained some (simple) stuff to him and he looked at me and said "I don't know any of that..."

Pretty much all the time. The mags were required for most of the drills so we'd put in a set number of dummy rounds and start doing the drills as the instructor called out the commands / stoppages / etc.

Your original statement contained a logical inconsistency. I think that I now see what you were trying to say (they had been able to demonstrate/repeat the skill at their test but had no deeper understanding of what was going on which tripped them up later - am I tracking?)  I am not necessarily agreeing with your assessment - just trying to make sure I understand your theory.

So the individual who had the ND did not know that the bullets go in the magazine and thence into the chamber upon cocking?  Even after training with magazines with drill rounds? You were the first person to make that connection for him?

Did the other members of the course who did not have negligent discharges have prior firearms training from their parents or public schools?

 

[Haggis]

Just a quick question, for the benefit of the us that were in the army with Moses, but are candidates not allowed to keep their rifles in the shacks at St. Jean anymore?  What I mean overnight, when they are on their own time.

Oh, God NO!!!!

 

[the 48th regulator]

Oh, God NO!!!!

Oh man....

I guess gone are the days of "Practicing drills" on one's own free time are gone.

Frig, what do the instructors have to yell at the troops then??

Stupid new Military...

dileas

tess

 

[Journeyman]

Come on Tess, how do you think Maj Hasan managed to kill 13 people and wound another 30 at  Fort Hood?

In Texas, there's too many people off-base that are armed that would have stopped that shooting-fest much sooner....but like here, soldiers' weapons are locked-up -- can't be trusted, you know.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I don't know what you mean, or whether you are calling me an idiot or just commenting on the 3 NDs thinger. Could you clarify please?

Just saying that - back when the earth was cooling - the safest people to be around re: weapons handling were new troops just out of training (vs. the dinosaurs like me) because they were freshly brainwashed with the right drills, and had the benefit of recent, insane amounts of practise with all the weapons in an Inf Pl.

 

[Journeyman]

.....freshly brainwashed with the right drills, and had the benefit of recent, insane amounts of practise with all the weapons in an Inf Pl.

But this suggests, pretty strongly, that they're getting neither brainwashwing with the proper drills or insane amounts of practice. 

Perhaps the MCpl or 'senior subbie' (both with a similar training background), and apparently nothing better to do, will carry these new troops once they get to the battalion