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Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

OP Podium was an eye opener. AF and Army got off the plane in Abbotsford, half went to tent city in Aldergrove and we went to the cruise ships in DT Vancouver. The things we get away with…

I had some friends who made fun of me for leaving green DEU for blue DEU life.

I would take pictures of my hotel room, flat, etc from different places, the views of the Med in Catania or sunset in Agana Bay from my 15th floor balcony. And send the pics to them.

I was ok with the name calling, surprisingly. 😁
 
If the LRP Sqns get something modern before I die, I would consider it. I can see the maintenance of the P8 be contracted out to avoid the RCAF being a pipeline to the AME airlines.
The pilots will likely have to get a 737 type rating to fly it. If the Multi-Engine community isn’t already a preferred choice…

I had some friends who made fun of me for leaving green DEU for blue DEU life.

I would take pictures of my hotel room, flat, etc from different places, the views of the Med in Catania or sunset in Agana Bay from my 15th floor balcony. And send the pics to them.

I was ok with the name calling, surprisingly. 😁
What - they don’t send you pictures of the nothing in Wainwright?!

“Chair Force“ is great - when I’m on the deck chair looking out the hotel balcony in whatever location I’m at. Actually, I might take a pic of one next time someone mentions it to me.
 
I also think also the issue is that we've been tied what the public service unions get.
It’s actually why the CAF is well paid. Prior to that “tying” salaries were at poverty levels. When they finally linked it, salaries went up.
Didn't work from home rights for the PS were the reason why the pay raises were smaller than expected?
What work from home rights? There are currently no rights to work from home. No one was expecting bigger pay raises. The PS got more than what the gvt offered but less than what the Union leadership was pushing for.
I also heard that the TB think we are well compensated. We should be compensated for the uniqueness and hardships we face in this career that no unionized employees have to face.
Is that not what the mil factor is for?
For me my SDA allowed me to put up with the BS I have to go through at sea and when alongside, now people well removed from this are saying not so fast. I think the writing is on the wall that whatever the changes are coming will mean less money in most bottom lines at the end of the month. With the loss of PLD and less of a pay raise than expected make me question how long I want to stay around for. I'm not the only one.
No doubt people will vote with their feet. Somehow still, the people at the top think we have a recruiting issue when we have a far worse retention issue.

What was the expected pay raise?
 
I would like to see a trade by trade pay/benefits/pension comparison to equivalent civilian opportunities. I think there would be a lot of disappointment within the CAF.

I'd like to see this too and you would think the CAF would have this...... I think in some trades pay is a problem, in some trades pay is absolutely not a problem in fact for many many people it's the only reason they stay.

Knowing the difference between the two is a lot more effective than providing a modest pay increase across the board that isn't enough for the guy that is already underpaid by comparison to civie jobs, and isn't the reason the overpaid guy wanted to leave.

Man we're bleeding people for a reason. Yes, perhaps more so in some occupations than others, and those occupations probably correlate strongly with trades that also have in-demand skills. Folks aren't getting out because they love taking a pay cut.

Can only speak for myself but I took a 50% pay cut to leave. Obviously I hoped/palnned for this to be a short-term thing and had things in place so that my pay could exponentially surpass my CAF pay, but it's still not an easy thing to do (a lot of that stuff was done while serving) and I would have much preferred the CAF not be such a shitty place so I could continue making the money I was making as opposed to having take the financial risk of leaving and having it backfire. Losing confidence in leadership is a lot more powerful than money.

I point this out because there's quite a few things the CAF can fix that doesn't cost any money that would offer people more qualitative value than money can buy.
 
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What - they don’t send you pictures of the nothing in Wainwright?!

Lol. “Wain-wrong”. My therapist was able to train me to block my memories of that place.

Brandon Scott Jones Dreaming GIF by CBS


“Chair Force“ is great - when I’m on the deck chair looking out the hotel balcony in whatever location I’m at. Actually, I might take a pic of one next time someone mentions it to me.

It’s a fun pastime!
 
It doesn't matter if we're the best paid military in the world or the worst. We're not competing for people against other militaries.

What matters is how well we're paid relative to the other employers in Canada. You know, those ones that oh so many of our personnel are leaving us for because they pay better? If we want to stop the bleed, we should have been adjusting compensation so that people getting out would be taking a pay cut, not getting a pay raise if they were to take the training that we provided them and used it elsewhere.

Unfortunately, TB's attitude towards our compensation was the complete opposite, primarily because they don't really care about our retention crisis.
Pay has little to do with the CAFs ills as compared to most Industries, your paid pretty well.

There are other factors at play here which some have alluded to:

I'd like to see this too and you would think the CAF would have this...... I think in some trades pay is a problem, in some trades pay is absolutely not a problem in fact for many many people it's the only reason they stay.

Knowing the difference between the two is a lot more effective than providing a modest pay increase across the board that isn't enough for the guy that is already underpaid by comparison to civie jobs, and isn't the reason the overpaid guy wanted to leave.
The idea that there is this panacea of high paying jobs outside the CAF for members to fall in to is a myth.

Vast majority will make less initially when they leave the service. From what I've seen, most members need to go back to School and get some upgrading/new education and it takes a long time to get established.

Myself, I was living out of a Motel surviving on around $1200.00 pay every two weeks while I was doing my apprenticeship for my new trade.

What got me to the next level was I worked hard and put out high quality work, the right people noticed me and then my background as a Military Officer allowed me to advance in to leadership roles.

It's taken off from there but I had to eat a lot of crap to get there though.


I see a lot of people looking to leave the service make some pretty common mistakes:

1. They overvalue their initial earning potential (especially true for Officers)
2. They bring over a lot of bad habits from the Military:

A. Being too humble - we generally aren't very good at selling our skills, underestimate ourselves and are overly subservient to hierarchy.
B. Lack of personal initiative - we generally are used to being told what to do as opposed to just simply taking action.
C. Being overly subservient to rank - There is no such thing really as a rigid career progression model in the Civilian World. Respect doesn't come with rank, you take respect 😉

3. Living off our past experiences - nobody gives a crap that you were Tommy Gunslinger, there is nothing more cringe than an ex-service member who won't let go of the past.

Military people are also generally terrible at things like writing resumes, CVs, etc.

Can only speak for myself but I took a 50% pay cut to leave. Obviously I hoped/palnned for this to be a short-term thing and had things in place so that my pay could exponentially surpass my CAF pay, but it's still not an easy thing to do (a lot of that stuff was done while serving) and I would have much preferred the CAF not be such a shitty place so I could continue making the money I was making as opposed to having take the financial risk of leaving and having it backfire. Losing confidence in leadership is a lot more powerful than money.

I point this out because there's quite a few things the CAF can fix that doesn't cost any money that would offer people more qualitative value than money can buy.

Agreed 100%. The work environment in the CAF is pretty toxic and thankless tbh. I personally think all the damage control is just plastering over the black mold lurking under the surface 😄
 
We are not the best paid. The Australian Defence Force pays far more. One of the exchange FLT LTs (Capt-equivalent) made more than the Wing Commander.

But, the Aussie cost of living (and their housing) has skyrocketed, surpassing ours in most places. Ironically, ADF members feel the squeeze even more if they’re not in shacks, bc the vast majority of their bases are in / near their major cities. This, plus some other things, has led to higher attrition than the CAF.

Aussie pay rates : https://pay-conditions.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-05/pay-sheets-wef-20230525.pdf

I was going ask how but realized without know the trade it’s impossible to check the Aussie pay rates.
I also think also the issue is that we've been tied what the public service unions get. Didn't work from home rights for the PS were the reason why the pay raises were smaller than expected? I also heard that the TB think we are well compensated. We should be compensated for the uniqueness and hardships we face in this career that no unionized employees have to face. For me my SDA allowed me to put up with the BS I have to go through at sea and when alongside, now people well removed from this are saying not so fast. I think the writing is on the wall that whatever the changes are coming will mean less money in most bottom lines at the end of the month. With the loss of PLD and less of a pay raise than expected make me question how long I want to stay around for. I'm not the only one.

I don’t blame you. Frankly if I were in Victoria I’d have put in my release the day PLD was cut.
 
2. They bring over a lot of bad habits from the Military:

A. Being too humble - we generally aren't very good at selling our skills, underestimate ourselves and are overly subservient to hierarchy.
B. Lack of personal initiative - we generally are used to being told what to do as opposed to just simply taking action.
C. Being overly subservient to rank - There is no such thing really as a rigid career progression model in the Civilian World. Respect doesn't come with rank, you take respect 😉

100% agree with all. The most surprising one being B, but truthfully it's the one that has been the most challenging thing the Army created in me to undo... It's a mind-fuck with all the indoctrination about mission command and how much "responsibility" and "authority" you have as Platoon Commander, etc., you'd think the army trained you well about "taking action" but in reality, the army was such a babysitting organization where you couldn't do anything without asking permission first that you're kinda f'd up for a bit when you go to a place that will actually let you take initiative (and reward you for it).
 
The problem with tying pay rates to civilian is the civilian market fluctuates.

A good example is IT. 20 years ago IT was the sector to be in. Now they are a dime a dozen and their wages have flattened. Supply Chain is another one, not only has the civilian wage expectations go up but it wildly rises the further up you rise in the supply chain.

So do we review everyone's pay every X years and raise and lower wages.

Then what do you equate trades like NCIOP or Armored Crewman to ?

I think our pay is good. Work on the work place culture, fix the gap the widening between the Officers and ORs. This will go along way.

Cutting Changing things like PLD or SDA will only be seen as a net negative; and are bonehead moves in an austere time.
 
The problem with tying pay rates to civilian is the civilian market fluctuates.

A good example is IT. 20 years ago IT was the sector to be in. Now they are a dime a dozen and their wages have flattened. Supply Chain is another one, not only has the civilian wage expectations go up but it wildly rises the further up you rise in the supply chain.

So do we review everyone's pay every X years and raise and lower wages.

Then what do you equate trades like NCIOP or Armored Crewman to ?

I think our pay is good. Work on the work place culture, fix the gap the widening between the Officers and ORs. This will go along way.

Cutting Changing things like PLD or SDA will only be seen as a net negative; and are bonehead moves in an austere time.
The environmental allowances being cut will absolutely gut the army, and I imagine the Navy as well. The Air Force air crew pay would mostly hit pilots (I think) who are already well paid. Taking an infantry Sgt’s bonus for spending 10-12 years in the field or a PO with. Who years in the fleets bonus is.. yeah gonna be rough.
 
The environmental allowances being cut will absolutely gut the army, and I imagine the Navy as well. The Air Force air crew pay would mostly hit pilots (I think) who are already well paid. Taking an infantry Sgt’s bonus for spending 10-12 years in the field or a PO with. Who years in the fleets bonus is.. yeah gonna be rough.
Pilots do not get Aircrew Allowance.
 
So, on the one hand, we have units that do not receive environmental allowances that spend as much if not more time in those conditions than units who do (hello, CTC), and we have the frequent complaint of people gaming the system but always missing sailings or field time; on the other hand, how dare we change the system that contributes to that outcome.
 
So, on the one hand, we have units that do not receive environmental allowances that spend as much if not more time in those conditions than units who do (hello, CTC), and we have the frequent complaint of people gaming the system but always missing sailings or field time; on the other hand, how dare we change the system that contributes to that outcome.
So how wide spread is the people "gaming" the system? I'm sure there's some so what are their supervisors doing about it?
 
The problem with tying pay rates to civilian is the civilian market fluctuates.

I think our pay is good. Work on the work place culture, fix the gap the widening between the Officers and ORs. This will go along way.

We need a better system of accountability and the ability to fire people. I'd rather cut the dead weight than have to dedicate resources to babysit and constantly mentor the untrainable. We don't owe employment to anyone.
 
So how wide spread is the people "gaming" the system? I'm sure there's some so what are their supervisors doing about it?
The only thing you can do is account for all of the missed days, if they get MELs it's not the supervisors place to question them. The medical system won't support digging into it further unless it's clearly a case of someone faking illness. Over a couple of decades I can't recall hearing of more than one or two times that has happened.

The CM only has so many billets ashore, and you can't just dump all of the "sick, lame, and lazy" into shore billets. You need to give the people going out the door time ashore to rest and you need good instructors to teach the next generation.

I'm sure the field units are in a similar situation, but having not been posted to one I can't give examples.
So, on the one hand, we have units that do not receive environmental allowances that spend as much if not more time in those conditions than units who do (hello, CTC), and we have the frequent complaint of people gaming the system but always missing sailings or field time; on the other hand, how dare we change the system that contributes to that outcome.
This is why I think a change toward a large bonus for being in the field/at sea, and removal of the monthly payments is needed. It won't initially be popular, but if it can be shown that it rewards/compensates for actual sea/field time, and doesn't allow for gaming, people will come around.
 
So, on the one hand, we have units that do not receive environmental allowances that spend as much if not more time in those conditions than units who do (hello, CTC), and we have the frequent complaint of people gaming the system but always missing sailings or field time; on the other hand, how dare we change the system that contributes to that outcome.

As I said, we control the mechanisms and qualifiers for who gets these allowances.

1) I've stated already the Army completely FUBAR'd LDA and has never worked to fix it, that I know of.
2) Make MELs a disqualifier for LDA/SDA. Example, unfit sea = No sea pay, regardless of the billet your are posted into.
 
Aussie pay rates : https://pay-conditions.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-05/pay-sheets-wef-20230525.pdf

I was going ask how but realized without know the trade it’s impossible to check the Aussie pay rates.
They also have an eye-chart (I can’t remember if it’s the same PDF or not) of allowances, to include bonuses for different languages, etc. It’s actually pretty bewildering to navigate.

I think our pay is good. Work on the work place culture, fix the gap the widening between the Officers and ORs. This will go along way.
Tangent alert: This is, IMO, a cultural thing which would require wholesale change to the RCN and CA.

When the prevailing culture in the Army and Navy is something from the 1800s (or before), and “calling your boss by their first name” is a joke levelled at the Air Force, folks shouldn’t be Pikachu-shocked that the cultural gap between ranks is wider in the RCN and CA than the RCAF. The closest I’ve seen an “aircrew” mentality was on the MCDVs, but that was decades ago.

I’m not sure how the RCN and CA can change that, or if they even want to. Even the Aussies, famous for being easygoing about most things, still have a more rigid rank system in the RAN and Aus Army than the RAAF, and they have the same complaints.
 
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