Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[Lex Parsimoniae]

As far as property taxes go, they're just another factor in the formula.  I looked around for hard data on property tax by city, and there is some but not much.  It points to Halifax being slightly more costly, while St. John's seems to be the lowest of the major Canadian cities.

Here's the data for Halifax:

A $180,000 house in Halifax will pay approx $2350 in 2010.

Urban General Rate - Residential and Resource Rate $0.702 
Suburban General Rate - Residential and Resource Rate $0.685
Rural  General Rate - Residential and Resource Rate $0.679

plus

Supplementary

Former City of Halifax and City of Dartmouth - $0.050 Residential and Resource
Former Town of Bedford and Halifax County - $0.045 Residential and Resource

plus

Mandatory Provincial Funding

Education - $0.312 for Residential and Resource
Property Valuation Services - $0.022 for Residential and Resource
Correction Services - $0.029 for Residential and Resource
Metro Housing Authority - $0.009 for Residential and Resource

http://www.halifax.ca/revenue/taxbill/index.html

 

[CountDC]

don't forget that PLD is set by comparing to the NCR now. Using the nice formula they determine how much more an average family  would pay to live in X community compared to the NCR and then set the PLD rate for X accordingly.  Still annoying that Halifax gets so much more than Ottawa - my cost of living increased when we moved here.

 

[armyvern]

don't forget that PLD is set by comparing to the NCR now. Using the nice formula they determine how much more an average family  would pay to live in X community compared to the NCR and then set the PLD rate for X accordingly.  Still annoying that Halifax gets so much more than Ottawa - my cost of living increased when we moved here.

All I know is that I'm getting $4705.27 back in taxes this year!! Thank to moves from New Brunswick TO Ontario!! Them in NB are wondering how Halifax gets what they do, yet NB gets the grand sum of zero too (same as NCR now).

 

[gcclarke]

All I know is that I'm looking forward to moving back to Victoria this summer. I'm not planning on buyingcannot afford to buy, and frankly, I don't anticipate my rental costs to be all that much more than what I'm paying now in Ottawa (well, Nepean). The fact That me and the girlfriend have agreed that we could stand to down-grade a tad helps too.

Of course, I realize that in this case, my costs wouldn't really be anything close to the average costs. But let's face it, I'd be doing this regardless of whether or not we got PLD. I'd just also be getting out of debt a lot slower in the meantime.

 

[CountDC]

All I know is that I'm getting $4705.27 back in taxes this year!! Thank to moves from New Brunswick TO Ontario!! Them in NB are wondering how Halifax gets what they do, yet NB gets the grand sum of zero too (same as NCR now).

The only thing that went down for me.  Everything else increased when we moved here.  Even moving into Q's resulted in a $200 rent increase. Price of gas was lower but ended up buying more to get around. Overall the cost of living increased for us and when they combine the sales tax into HST it is going to get even more  fun...

 

[armyvern]

The only thing that went down for me.  Everything else increased when we moved here.  Even moving into Q's resulted in a $200 rent increase. Price of gas was lower but ended up buying more to get around. Overall the cost of living increased for us and when they combine the sales tax into HST it is going to get even more  fun...

I believe you; having a brother posted from Ontario to Halifax, Nova Scotia last year - who bought a bigger & much newer home for less dollars, talking about how his family now enjoys life more with the lower output his family now has to spend 'to enjoy life after work" ... combined with his statments as to how he can't believe his PLD actually went up substantially while his costs went down and he gets to bank even more into his savings account now that he's in Nova Scotia ...

I don't know what the formula is, but it doesn't seem to involve "common sense" in it - quelle surprise.

 

[Occam]

The only thing that went down for me.  Everything else increased when we moved here.  Even moving into Q's resulted in a $200 rent increase. Price of gas was lower but ended up buying more to get around. Overall the cost of living increased for us and when they combine the sales tax into HST it is going to get even more  fun...

I'm not quite sure how you're paying more.  We moved from the east coast to Ottawa two years ago, and we have way more disposable income than we did before - even with a house that cost twice what we had in Halifax.

Don't forget that the HST in NS is heading to 15% from 13%.

 

[dapaterson]

Keep in mind PLD is calculated based on past comparisons; situations change in different places.  There's also a policy to keep it from shifting too radically - so a place with a high PLD will see it reduce over several years if things change, vice a sudden hit - but that may also mean other places will see their entitlement grow more slowly, as DND has a set envelope approved by Treasury Board to pay PLD.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

AV,

PLD in Halifax did not go up last year.  It is the same this year as it was last year...it did go up in '08 though.

And...of my $631 PLD, I see $378 of that in the bank.  My return on my income tax is a whooping $200.  Its not like I am getting any of that back because I overpayed.  Taxes are going UP in NS overall (thanks to all the Bluenosers who voted in a NDP provincial government)...I pay $7 for 4 liters of milk...its not as great as some seem to make it WRT to PLD and living in Halifax area. 

 

[Wookilar]

All I know is that with a move from Kingston to Oromocto, my promotion and raise equaled about $300/month which ended up being an extra $27/pay once the change in provincial taxes got done with it (all other allotments staying the same). And no, I didn't enter a new tax bracket.

House is about the same as Kingston, but groceries and provincial based taxes are way more. Comparing the two locations (and the $0 PLD) I do not undeerstand how Gagetown gets zip with the obvious increases to the cost of living as compared to Kingston (which also gets zip).

What was it on South Park? The Chewbaca defence? Something like that. It does not make sense.

Wook

 

[blacktriangle]

Damn it!... He's using the Chewbacca defense!

 

[blacktriangle]

Damn it!... He's using the Chewbacca defense!

(On a more serious note, would anyone be willing to suggest a decent area of Ottawa to buy a starter home in? I'm not at all familiar with the area.)

 

[gcclarke]

House is about the same as Kingston, but groceries and provincial based taxes are way more. Comparing the two locations (and the $0 PLD) I do not undeerstand how Gagetown gets zip with the obvious increases to the cost of living as compared to Kingston (which also gets zip).

Simple, they're not comparing Kingston and Gagetown. They're comparing Kingston and the NCR, and then comparing Gagetown and the NCR. It may work out that when they do the calculations, Kingston is $300 a month cheaper to live in than the NCR, whereas Gagetown is $35 more expensive than the NCR (As, in accordance with CBI 205.45(9) PLD is only paid out if it works out to at least $50 a month). Is it unfair? Maybe. But unless you want them to start docking the pay of people posted to cheaper cities, I wouldn't suggest kicking up too much of a fuss about it.

Edit: Removed snarkiness about tax brackets.

 

[Occam]

(On a more serious note, would anyone be willing to suggest a decent area of Ottawa to buy a starter home in? I'm not at all familiar with the area.)

From personal experience - Orleans is nice.  Lots of property available, extremely well-serviced by OC Transpo, lots and lots of shopping close by, schools are good from all reports.  Not so great if you're wanting to go to Senators games, which are on the other side of the city.

 

[CountDC]

I'm not quite sure how you're paying more.  We moved from the east coast to Ottawa two years ago, and we have way more disposable income than we did before - even with a house that cost twice what we had in Halifax.

Don't forget that the HST in NS is heading to 15% from 13%.

yep and the HST here is going to 13% on a lot of items that we never paid the PST on before.  I remember when they brought it into NS and the wallet took a good hit and the stupid rules they had.  Milk no HST - Chocalate Milk HST.

Paying more to start with

Rent - +200
Gas - use a lot more
Groceries - fresh produce tends to go bad quicker (Lettuce - haven't found a good crispy romaine lettuce yet and what is with all the dirt).
Insurance - went up, can't recall how much exactly but it was a few hundred a year.
Entertainment - almost impossible to take the family out anywhere without paying parking so that is an added expense.  Halifax just about everywhere had discounts for military while Ottawa laughs in your face when you ask.  McD does not get visited too often as much as my daughter likes the place (that is a good one as I hate the place).
Medicine - our share does cost more.
Dental - yep, our share again has cost us more.

Only thing I can think of that went down was the provincial income tax. We have changed our life style to make it work better for us (less fresh produce so we don't end up wasting as much, cycling to work Mar/Apr to Oct/Nov, less shopping trips and museum visits, movies are now at home, more store brand products, etc)

and I agree with Occam - Orleans is a nice area with great shopping and a lot more going in.  If you are a Sens Fan  :threat: then Barrhaven may be a good choice althought the new housing I see there are all on postage stamps.

 

[armyvern]

AV,

PLD in Halifax did not go up last year.  It is the same this year as it was last year...it did go up in '08 though.

And...of my $631 PLD, I see $378 of that in the bank.  My return on my income tax is a whooping $200.  Its not like I am getting any of that back because I overpayed.  Taxes are going UP in NS overall (thanks to all the Bluenosers who voted in a NDP provincial government)...I pay $7 for 4 liters of milk...its not as great as some seem to make it WRT to PLD and living in Halifax area.

What I meant was ... his PLD went UP while moving from Ontario TO Nova Scotia last year ... and he is still shocked by that considering how much better off he and his family are now (banking his entire PLD into savings every month) and still managing to enjoy "after work activities more often and better" down there in NS (IE: He is enjoying a much higher standard of living in NS ... and banking the entire PLD). Hmmmmmm.

 

[armyvern]

Simple, they're not comparing Kingston and Gagetown. They're comparing Kingston and the NCR, and then comparing Gagetown and the NCR. It may work out that when they do the calculations, Kingston is $300 a month cheaper to live in than the NCR, whereas Gagetown is $35 more expensive than the NCR (As, in accordance with CBI 205.45(9) PLD is only paid out if it works out to at least $50 a month). Is it unfair? Maybe. But unless you want them to start docking the pay of people posted to cheaper cities, I wouldn't suggest kicking up too much of a fuss about it.

Edit: Removed snarkiness about tax brackets.

Oromocto/Freddy cost of living is comparable to Halifax, Nova Scotia - including house prices, taxes, property taxes, food prices, etc.

If comparing to Ottawa is, as you say, the factor --- please explain how Halifax gets +600 bucks per month and Gagetown gets diddly squat when both are compared to Ottawa.

I'll buy your "you can't compare Gagetown to Kingston" scenario, but how do you explain the huge differences between the two locals (both very very similar) when comparing both to Ottawa?

Like I said earlier - I'm up a whopping 4700+ bucks refund in taxes because I moved from NB to Ontario ... and I only paid Ontario taxes the last 4 months of the year.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

(On a more serious note, would anyone be willing to suggest a decent area of Ottawa to buy a starter home in? I'm not at all familiar with the area.)

Orleans is good, but I personally like Rockland better (I own a house there - want to rent it?).  You get substantially more house and lot than you would in Orleans.  The community has a lot going for it, and the transit system is great - from my house to NDHQ in 50 minutes (including walking time to bus stop) for $120 a month in a highway cruiser.

 

[gcclarke]

Oromocto/Freddy cost of living is comparable to Halifax, Nova Scotia - including house prices, taxes, property taxes, food prices, etc.

If comparing to Ottawa is, as you say, the factor --- please explain how Halifax gets +600 bucks per month and Gagetown gets diddly squat when both are compared to Ottawa.

I'll buy your "you can't compare Gagetown to Kingston" scenario, but how do you explain the huge differences between the two locals (both very very similar) when comparing both to Ottawa?

Like I said earlier - I'm up a whopping 4700+ bucks refund in taxes because I moved from NB to Ontario ... and I only paid Ontario taxes the last 4 months of the year.

All I can say is that perhaps your lifestyle isn't the same as the "standard template" used to calculate the PLD rates. First off, the family used to calculate costs consists of three persons with a single income. If this isn't you, then you're already skewing the numbers. Perhaps you eat out either less frequently or more frequently than the "standard" person does. Maybe you're a vegetarian, or maybe you eat twice the meat that the "normal" person does. Perhaps you have 3 cars, or perhaps you don't have any. Perhaps you buy clothing more or less often. Perhaps you aren't just the perfect rank to be making exactly the same amount as the average salary used when calculating income tax. Perhaps you cut your own hair instead of going to the barbers. Perhaps you decide to send your kids to a private school. Perhaps your idea of recreation is hiking or playing board games at home rather than going out to the movies or the theatre. Maybe you don't smoke or drink.

Everyone's lifestyle is different, and the task of determining the actual differences in living costs is impossible, as that will be constantly shifting. As I mentioned before, I'm posted to Victoria in a couple months. Victoria has a rather high PLD rate, I presume mostly due to high housing costs. I, however, would certainly not be surprised if I end up paying less for housing there than I currently am paying here in Ottawa. Of course the fact that I do not currently nor plan to have children also helps this.

Is it fair? Perhaps not, but they don't pull these numbers out of their nowhere. They try to take an extremely complex set of variables and boil it down to a single number. Of course it's going to be inaccurate for most people. For some, this will mean more money in their pocket. For others, it will mean they'll have to cut back.

But unless we start tailoring the allowances based on these factors, I see no other solution. Of course, we wouldn't be able to do that either, as that would certainly be discrimination upon the basis of marital status, which the Supreme Court has ruled is analogous the those categories in Section 15 of the Charter upon the basis of which discrimination is forbidden.

 

[Wookilar]

Vern's nailed it on the head.

I'm not comparing Kingston to Gagetown exactly, I'm just comparing them in that they both get $0 when compared to Ottawa. If that's the case, then the costs associated with living in both areas should even out to be approximately the same.

We left Edmonton before everything went insane (too bad, could have made away like bandits on the house  ), went to Kingston where there was a noticeable difference in our cost of living and our lifestyle. After a few years there, and a promotion which should have brought us up a fair bit, a posting to Gagetown skewed everything again.

There are certain things in NB that cost less than ON (school fees are almost nonexistent down here), the majority of your day-to-day operations as a family co much more. There were certain things in Kingston that were cheaper than Edmonton (at the time).

Having lived in these 3 particular locations, for more than long enough to see a few years (ha) in each, I have to say that all these places being $0 when compared to Ottawa is absolute crap. When I left Edmonton it was $0 (yes I know it is changed now but keep up for a second), Kingston $0, Gagetown also $0. While Edmonton has changed drastically due to local extreme market fluctuations, the others have not moved. When looking at these locations (and others i.e. Halifax), and comparing them to Ottawa, how can a few places with so much noticeable disparity all equal $0 when compared to the NCR?

I have a hard time believing that the exact formula for determining PLD is purely statistical in nature. I have a hard time believing that the data used to achieve these numbers are numbers that most rational people would use. If it was purely stats, from the public domain, that are used, why did we have to fight so bloody hard to get Edmonton reexamined? When there was a drastic change in the data used, a reasonable person/system should have adjusted the rates. That's how it is supposed to work.

Someone please tell me that stats are all that's involved. If so, why not give us the formula, the data sets used? What are they afraid of? I don't think the Chinese care how we figure out PLD rates, but the Treasury Board certainly doesn't want us to know.

Wook