Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[Halifax Tar]

I agree that there will be a lot of discontent, but how many decisions are made that don't cause lots of b*tching and moaning?  I'm not sure that actually amounts to anything, as it's forgotten as soon as something new to complain about happens.

As for manning, I think that it would represent a massive issue of discipline within the Navy, if a few hundred bucks is all that's keeping our sailors at sea.

I think messing with the SDA will be allot bigger than say what the QMs new dress is for brow watches. You will have some members who have been drawing the SDA for a very long time and are making a sustantial amount off of it suddenly seeing a decrease in pay! Look what happened when ships started getting FSP and the CPO with 20 years sea time and umpteen NATOs was now making less than the LS with 3 land tours under their respective belts while on a CEFCOM mission!

I think you will see a substantial exit of people who are able to collect a pension (i.e. 20+ years service pers). This will again create a leadership/experience vacuum that the young'ns will have to suddenly fill prematurely. 

And really the amount of people doing pier head jumps and sticking their proverbial finger in the hole that is naval manning right now is at a dangerous level! We need to retain and work to retain not give the member more incentive to leave an already under appreciated service (Navy).

 

[Pat in Halifax]

SDA to those of us who sail means more than "going to sea" and I dare say that unless you have served in an HR unit or one working up to HR than maybe (as they say), you can learn more by listening than talking. Never mind the sometimes 1 in 7/8 duty watches but the 10-12 hour working days alongside and 18+ hour working days at sea. I am by no means complaining but more trying to make the point.
As for the LS/Cpl making more than the CPO with the HD scale (or what ever it is now called), I was one of those on OP APOLLO when a Cpl Clerk actually chuckled at me (as a PO1) when he saw all my levels were at the lowest-Me with 4+ 6-month NATOs and as I commented to him re ship board life "I have passed more light houses going astern than you have passed telephone poles in your life so shut the f*** up!!"

 

[mwhy321]

Back to the original topic of this conversation. PLD of $631 for Halifax?????? Can someone honestly with a straight face argue its $7000 more a year to live in Halifax then the NCR?

 

[FSTO]

PLDA
MONTHLY PLD (in dollars) AFTER MARCH 2008
PLDA
MONTHLY PLD (in dollars) AFTER MARCH 2008
Regina                                62
Saskatoon                          382
Dundurn-Saskatoon          0
Moose Jaw                        284

I know that Real Estate is not the only factor taken into account when computing PLD. But in Saskatchewan, our property taxes, utilities (electric and natural gas are set by a provincial body) groceries and gasoline are all within a couple of dollars of each other. So I cannot see why there is such a difference between Regina-Moose Jaw- Saskatoon and Dundurn. When I asked DCBA what their methodology was for computing PLD they said that it was confidential and would not release the information.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Back to the original topic of this conversation. PLD of $631 for Halifax?????? Can someone honestly with a straight face argue its $7000 more a year to live in Halifax then the NCR?

You can have my PLD if I get your taxes and goods and services costs...Fair trade I would say...

 

[Halifax Tar]

SDA to those of us who sail means more than "going to sea" and I dare say that unless you have served in an HR unit or one working up to HR than maybe (as they say), you can learn more by listening than talking. Never mind the sometimes 1 in 7/8 duty watches but the 10-12 hour working days alongside and 18+ hour working days at sea. I am by no means complaining but more trying to make the point.
As for the LS/Cpl making more than the CPO with the HD scale (or what ever it is now called), I was one of those on OP APOLLO when a Cpl Clerk actually chuckled at me (as a PO1) when he saw all my levels were at the lowest-Me with 4+ 6-month NATOs and as I commented to him re ship board life "I have passed more light houses going astern than you have passed telephone poles in your life so shut the f*** up!!"

I totally agree with you Pat. I had to chuckle when I asked my fellow sup techs with 2 Svc Bn and 1 or 2 RCR (I don't know the difference) how often they went to the field. The reply I got was nothing that I expected. I know a few of them would be shocked to be join a HR ship and see often you get to go home at night. I could see the waste in LDA in that.

As well with the FSP thing I do believe your exact example was the driving factor behind the back dating of FSPs for pers who has served ship born NATOs ect ect ect. Even still we don't get the benefits until we enter "the box" while on deployment.

SDA to those of us who sail means more than "going to sea" and I dare say that unless you have served in an HR unit or one working up to HR than maybe (as they say), you can learn more by listening than talking.

As I surly hope your not pointing that me ?

 

[jollyjacktar]

Back to the original topic of this conversation. PLD of $631 for Halifax?????? Can someone honestly with a straight face argue its $7000 more a year to live in Halifax then the NCR?

What are you paying a month for electricity for example?  I pay over $300 for starters.  Groceries, I bet it's cheaper too for you.  We have the highest Provincial tax rate of anyone as well.  Other things too.  Now I'm not saying you don't pay big money for things, but I think you can look at someone high up in the puzzle palace trying to make a show of something for cutting you off at the knees.

 

[mwhy321]

What are you paying a month for electricity for example?  I pay over $300 for starters.  Groceries, I bet it's cheaper too for you.  We have the highest Provincial tax rate of anyone as well.  Other things too.  Now I'm not saying you don't pay big money for things, but I think you can look at someone high up in the puzzle palace trying to make a show of something for cutting you off at the knees.

I've lived in NS, all be it its been several years, but if things are so much more (which in reality they aren't $631 more), then why no PLD for Greenwood or Sydney?

 

[jollyjacktar]

I've lived in NS, all be it its been several years, but if things are so much more (which in reality they aren't $631 more), then why no PLD for Greenwood or Sydney?

Can't say, but some things are not as expensive at those locations as it is here in the Halifax region.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I've lived in NS, all be it its been several years, but if things are so much more (which in reality they aren't $631 more), then why no PLD for Greenwood or Sydney?

What is several years ? I will tell you when I was posted to Halifax from Kingston I was shocked to see the hit I took on my pay in taxes. Greenwood and Sydney both have cheaper housing and goods and services.

 

[Figment]

I moved from Halifax to Greenwood so I have an informed opinion on the cost of living differences. At one time housing was cheaper here in the ditch but now a new build starts at $250,000 if you can find one, mostly you get stuck with someone's  junk . An honest builder will be harder to find. So it is really only slightly cheaper. As for goods and services, it is way more expensive because most are "one of" so there is no competition. Even the regulated cost of fuel is more. And because it is a predominately transient community, the property taxes based on assessments are through the roof. My assessment has rose $104,000 in 5 years. Even with the CAP.
PLD is supposed to be based on a two income family living in Ottawa. Unless your other income also comes from the military you out of luck. There is no industry, only minimum wage jobs like Tim's and McD's. If your spouse is used to having responsibility and job satisfaction it can be a kick in the junk to do a mind numbing job pouring coffee or working in a store where you might get 5 customers all day.
When I asked the WCWO about the lack of good jobs and PLD he told me "that's why so many spouses join the Reserves" great answer, post people to Greenwood to recruit for the Reserves. And you have to buy your own watch that can be set back to 1975.

 

[Pusser]

But doing away with and only issuing it for days while at sea will cause, and I promise it will, a huge discontent in the fleet(s) at all ranks and will greatly effect manning. The draw for some people to be posted to ship is the SDA. All those with 20 + years in will have lost another incentive to stick around and will simply go else where. SDA is also there and justified by our duty watches (home and foreign port) and the long extra hours people put on the grey hulls. I always saw it as my overtime pay.

I don't follow you.  My proposal will still see that people who get posted to ships will still draw SDA, so the incentive to go to ships is still there.  I'm only saying that we should pay it differently in order to be more fair.  Right now, the sailors in HR ships get the same as the guys in SR ships.  Shouldn't the guys who go to sea more often get more?  SDA should be paid for doing the job, not for having a posting message.  I've seen too many folks draw SDA for too long without ever once actually leaving the jetty.  Paying it strictly for days at sea would eliminate this.

As for duty watches, they have nothing to do with it.  Treasury Board approved SDA as compensation for a number of "specific factors" associated with the environmental aspects of service at sea.  The requirement to stand duty watches in home or in foreign port is not one of those specific factors.  Duty watches are considered a normal military duty, along the same vein as base duty.  Now, before everybody joins the dogpile on me to say that shipboard duty watches are nothing like Duty PMC at the mess on Tuesday night, I agree, but I didn't make the rules. 

 

[Halifax Tar]

I don't follow you.  My proposal will still see that people who get posted to ships will still draw SDA, so the incentive to go to ships is still there.  I'm only saying that we should pay it differently in order to be more fair.  Right now, the sailors in HR ships get the same as the guys in SR ships.  Shouldn't the guys who go to sea more often get more?  SDA should be paid for doing the job, not for having a posting message.  I've seen too many folks draw SDA for too long without ever once actually leaving the jetty.  Paying it strictly for days at sea would eliminate this.

As for duty watches, they have nothing to do with it.  Treasury Board approved SDA as compensation for a number of "specific factors" associated with the environmental aspects of service at sea.  The requirement to stand duty watches in home or in foreign port is not one of those specific factors.  Duty watches are considered a normal military duty, along the same vein as base duty.  Now, before everybody joins the dogpile on me to say that shipboard duty watches are nothing like Duty PMC at the mess on Tuesday night, I agree, but I didn't make the rules.

As long as it stays a monthly allowance not something dolled out per day at sea you will get no gripe from me. And if we do go SDA per day at sea how will that effect the point system ? Will it mean a member has to spend X number of days at sea per month to earn a point for that month ? This is just going to get as complicated and ridiculous as that silly boy scout badge, sea service insignia thing coming out.

Pusser I would be interested to know your sea experience, not calling you out understand just wondering. I know of all my time while in the Navy and of the 9 years I have posted to ships I have never once heard anyone say "geez those guys on HMCS XXX are getting sea pay and they haven't sailed in X days" nor have I ever thought that as a person. Don't kid yourself this not to be "fair" to members or to create some utopian pay equality, this is a simple money grab and one that isn't deserved. Money is wasted everyday in the CF in much bigger commodities than SDA, why don't we go after some of the real issues and leave the benefits alone.

Don't forget this is not about the ships its about the people within them making it all happen. Very often, too often, people are simply jumping from ship to ship ship to plug holes. This would only create a nightmare for the pay clerk who has to calculate it! I say just leave it as a monthly allowance like it is now and simply tweak it to close the loopholes and tie up the loose ends. As far as I am concerned anyone posted to a sleek greyhounds of death deserves that extra $. As I have said before few people in the CF spend as much time away from home with so little extra incentive as our fine sailors.

 

[Pat in Halifax]

We're off topic again but quickly-Maybe tie the increments in with SSI. That way, though you may have rec'd SDA for 10 years, if you only actually spent 200 days "at sea", you remain at ...say....Level 1? Just a thought-then they would have something else useful to do with all that data compiled for the SSI....Just me thinking....

 

[Halifax Tar]

We're off topic again but quickly-Maybe tie the increments in with SSI. That way, though you may have rec'd SDA for 10 years, if you only actually spent 200 days "at sea", you remain at ...say....Level 1? Just a thought-then they would have something else useful to do with all that data compiled for the SSI....Just me thinking....

If they go that way one would hope the same data could be used for the tow policies, but we both know how we like to do the same equation multiple times expecting a different answer each time.

 

[ballz]

WRT how they calculate PLD and the differences between different cities, we had a long-winded discussion about this in another PLD thread, particularly comparing St. John's (149/mth) to Halifax (631/mth). We compared just about everything under the sun, without any convincing evidence that there was much difference in the two cities either which way.

I think we ended up concluding that someone just wrote the different cities down on a piece of paper, dropped the stack down the stairs, and whoever got the furthest down gets the most money. ;D

In reality, I don't think income taxes should play into it. Theoritically, if you pay more income tax, you're receiving more social services. I'm just going to assume they just use the same "basket of goods" used to compute the Consumer Price Index, since it would be easy to do (basically already done for them) and all, until someone can get their hands on the actual method... but that still doesn't explain the difference between St. John's and Halifax.

Anyway I suggest not trying to figure this one out if you don't like headaches and/or smacking your head off the wall.

 

[FSTO]

WRT how they calculate PLD and the differences between different cities, we had a long-winded discussion about this in another PLD thread, particularly comparing St. John's (149/mth) to Halifax (631/mth). We compared just about everything under the sun, without any convincing evidence that there was much difference in the two cities either which way.

I think we ended up concluding that someone just wrote the different cities down on a piece of paper, dropped the stack down the stairs, and whoever got the furthest down gets the most money. ;D

In reality, I don't think income taxes should play into it. Theoritically, if you pay more income tax, you're receiving more social services. I'm just going to assume they just use the same "basket of goods" used to compute the Consumer Price Index, since it would be easy to do (basically already done for them) and all, until someone can get their hands on the actual method... but that still doesn't explain the difference between St. John's and Halifax.

Anyway I suggest not trying to figure this one out if you don't like headaches and/or smacking your head off the wall.

I hear you buddy, out here in Regina we just figured the person making the decision screwed up and is too embarrassed to admit their mistake.

 

[Stoker]

I don't follow you.  My proposal will still see that people who get posted to ships will still draw SDA, so the incentive to go to ships is still there.  I'm only saying that we should pay it differently in order to be more fair.  Right now, the sailors in HR ships get the same as the guys in SR ships.  Shouldn't the guys who go to sea more often get more?  SDA should be paid for doing the job, not for having a posting message.  I've seen too many folks draw SDA for too long without ever once actually leaving the jetty.  Paying it strictly for days at sea would eliminate this.

I have no problem making it more fair as in not paying it to people who are on temp medical cats and so forth. As for not being able to draw it because your ship doesn't go to sea well that's the pick of the draw. I'm not going to begrudge someone who is posted to a ship that has limited sea days, all ships do that over time, it evens out in the end. I don't know what your sea experience is, although I think its interesting to note that it seems some of these proposals come from people who either never sailed in their life or has a limited amount of sea time under the guise to making it "fair". Not to mention it saves a boat load of cash.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Not to mention it saves a boat load of cash.

And that, is exactly what I suspect will be behind the chopping and cutting of any benefits to the troops.  It's all about some bean counter being able to show the system how hot shit they are in saving bucks and allowing treasury to make out like Scrooge McDuck.  Should be worth a promotion to some staff weenie, somewhere.

 

[Halifax Tar]

And that, is exactly what I suspect will be behind the chopping and cutting of any benefits to the troops.  It's all about some bean counter being able to show the system how hot crap they are in saving bucks and allowing treasury to make out like Scrooge McDuck.  Should be worth a promotion to some staff weenie, somewhere.

In one of my previous posts to Pusser you will see I stated the same as you and Chief Stoker.

This is a poorly veiled attempt to save $ disguised as a fair way to pay out. Now is this actually happening or are we debating a fictitious event ?