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Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

Maybe we can post the entire RCN to Ottawa and det them to a coast when they need to sail…
Or maybe instead of forcing members to live off the local economy for housing, we build more housing on bases. It ain't rocket science, plenty if companies make prefab homes, start ordering them, drop them in place. Their argument for this new program is to make it so members aren't paying 40% of their salary to housing. Well of that's true, build more base housing and charge a fixed rate of say 20% or less of a members income. Members then have more disposable income to boost local economies
 
Ok, I made up a spreadsheet, and oh what a nightmare it was. But, I've got all the data in there and all the equations worked out. I'm 90% sure my numbers are correct but I made a few assumptions and it's late so please correct me where I'm wrong if you see it! I picked three cities from a Navy perspective, and here you go. If you want other cities let me know.

The tables show the difference in monthly gross salary between the April 1st 2023 pay scales and the April 1st 2022 pay scales. The top row is someone who is currently living in PMQs, meaning they will get the EI, lose PLD and get no CFHD, and the bottom row is those who will get EI, lose PLD, and receive CFHD based on their Pay Level. The colour coding is based on zero being yellow.

View attachment 76969
Thanks for that. Is it easier to work out for other bases since the macros are set up?
 
Ok, I made up a spreadsheet, and oh what a nightmare it was. But, I've got all the data in there and all the equations worked out. I'm 90% sure my numbers are correct but I made a few assumptions and it's late so please correct me where I'm wrong if you see it! I picked three cities from a Navy perspective, and here you go. If you want other cities let me know.

The tables show the difference in monthly gross salary between the April 1st 2023 pay scales and the April 1st 2022 pay scales. The top row is someone who is currently living in PMQs, meaning they will get the EI, lose PLD and get no CFHD, and the bottom row is those who will get EI, lose PLD, and receive CFHD based on their Pay Level. The colour coding is based on zero being yellow.

View attachment 76969

The colours are telling - thanks for taking the time to put that together.

Just wanted to add; another group affected are people on IR. If you’re living in a location receiving HD and posted IR to a location without for your rank and PI, you don’t get HD anymore.

Before anyone starts the “going IR is a choice” party line, please - don’t. It isn’t always a choice and sometimes is forced on people due to unreasonable HR practices and decisions.
 
Or maybe instead of forcing members to live off the local economy for housing, we build more housing on bases. It ain't rocket science, plenty if companies make prefab homes, start ordering them, drop them in place. Their argument for this new program is to make it so members aren't paying 40% of their salary to housing. Well of that's true, build more base housing and charge a fixed rate of say 20% or less of a members income. Members then have more disposable income to boost local economies

I don’t believe the GoC really wants to expand CFHA to the level that would be needed. That would suggest the GoC cares about CAF members deeply and I don’t believe that is true.

You’re asking for more than they’re willing to give…
 
Just wanted to add; another group affected are people on IR. If you’re living in a location receiving HD and posted IR to a location without for your rank and PI, you don’t get HD anymore.
I didn't think you got PLD on IR?

The cynical side of me is wondering how many people in Esq/Hfx are magically putting their hands up for every deployment now.
 
I didn't think you got PLD on IR?

The cynical side of me is wondering how many people in Esq/Hfx are magically putting their hands up for every deployment now.

If the place youre from had PLD then you continued to collect while on IR.

Example, I did 4 years on IR in Kingston, from Halifax. I collected Halifax PLD.
 
If the place youre from had PLD then you continued to collect while on IR.

Example, I did 4 years on IR in Kingston, from Halifax. I collected Halifax PLD.
ok, so it's your family's location, not your location. Does that change with HD?
 
ok, so it's your family's location, not your location. Does that change with HD?

Funny thing it's opposite for provincial taxes. I was paid at the Ont rate, but had to claim NS. This led to me upping my tax contributions by 150$ a month to break even.

I'm assuming the policy remains unchanged. But I stand to be corrected.
 
Thanks for that. Is it easier to work out for other bases since the macros are set up?
I don't have "macros" set up but, yes, I've got all the tables linked so making the graphs into pictures that looks nice and that I can share here takes up 5x as much work as actually making up the tables.
 
Funny thing it's opposite for provincial taxes. I was paid at the Ont rate, but had to claim NS. This led to me upping my tax contributions by 150$ a month to break even.

I'm assuming the policy remains unchanged. But I stand to be corrected.
That's weird, I had my taxes set up on IR in NS to continue paying ON rates as my place of residence (which was true).

I'm hoping there will be a clarification for IR, it already costs the member money to be on IR.
 
I'm assuming that the "Effective April 1st 2023" pay rates incorporate all of the retroactive pay increases up to now, so basically all of them except the 2024 pay increase and I'm assuming that the "Effective April 1st 2022" pay rates on the site (which provides my baseline) does not include any of the pay increases. The file called "historic pay rates" which goes back to the 90s seems to match these assumptions, but I could be wrong.
If you pulled the Canada.ca 1 Apr 2022 pay rates they are updated to include the pay raises since 1 Apr 2021.

The old rate(what I'm currently paid) for a PO1 SO3 is $7003 rather than the $7357 listed on the main site.
 
If you pulled the Canada.ca 1 Apr 2022 pay rates they are updated to include the pay raises since 1 Apr 2021.

The old rate(what I'm currently paid) for a PO1 SO3 is $7003 rather than the $7357 listed on the main site.
Thanks! I'll go find the 2021 rates and use that as the baseline and re-do.
 
Nvm, I'm wrong.

Since I'm in here now, I'll add something.

The whole idea of getting extra money for housing makes no sense to me. I can't imagine asking my employer for a raise because I don't have a nice house / nicer apartment. The market determines what I'm getting paid for the position I'm in, not what my bills are. Imagine me going to my firm as a staff accountant and instead of them saying "even though you're a staff accountant, we recognize you already have your designation and a ton of other experience than none of these 22-23 year olds have, so we're going to offer you a premium because those are things your staff accountant peers don't have" they said "since you're 32 and already own a house, we're going to offer you the market rate minus a housing differential because all of your peers still live with their parents.

PLD became a shit system because they didn't update it when the market changed, but it answered the problem of labour market rates being different across the country in a more logical way than a "housing differential" in that it effected everyone equally when they entered into a new labour market (new region) the same. I suppose over time the "housing differential" will truly only serve to increase the compensation level for the vast majority of the CAF who are the lower ends of the pay scales - whereas those on the higher end of the payscales are already more pot-committed to staying in the CAF - so I dunno, maybe it'll have a positive effect.

There are a dumber of differentiating factors:
1. CAF members cannot negotiate pay And are legally prohibited from doing so.
2. CAF orders members to relocate to certain places, irrespective of local housing markets at origin or destination.
3. CAF does not pay overtime and makes it tough to hold a second job, limiting members’ ability to supplement their base income. Deployments cannot be counted on for this.
4. CAF relocations can make it difficult for members’ spouses to hold down good jobs or achieve career growth (though less so for the navy).
5. A Cpl in Ottawa or Esquimault makes the same salary as a Cpl in Greenwood or Shilo. In some places, junior soldiers cannot afford reasonable housing on base pay.
6. CAF has gotten more and more out of providing subsidized housing directly to troops.
7. CAF equips members will skills and experiences that sets the better members up for finding other careers elsewhere.

If a private business were to fail to recruit and retain, the consequences are simply that that business may not be competitive and would fail.

Conversely, if CAF fails to recruit and retain, that comes at the immediate expense of Canada’s ability to generate combat capable forces to defend the national interest and to contribute to coalition forces. Therefore, the recruiting and, more importantly, retention of trained troops for CAF is a national security imperative. If the inability of junior troops to afford a decent quality of housing in some markets is enough of a dissatisfier to hurt retention, then CAF (and Treasury Board) can either ignore it and eat the loss, or can have something in place to mitigate it. They’ve chosen the latter. CFHD as newly constructed seems reasonable (although the 7 years thing is an issue), though for some the transition from PLD to CFHD will suck. Still, the overall notion of helping to offset higher costs of living, on a regional and means tested basis, is reasonable.
 
A sea of red!

Makes you wonder how only Ottawa is in the green, from what I've seen. It's like the NCR staff started with their region first making sure they weren't screwed over like they were under the PLD system, and whatever was left was distributed to the other bases. Then they gloated that "we saved the government money" with $30m in savings by taking away from the major Navy bases. Insanity.
 
When I joined (I know...I know...) it was mandatory for me to reside in the barracks and eat in the mess. And when I wanted to move out, I had to request permission in writing to my chain of command demonstrating I could afford it in order to be granted authorization to move out of the barracks...
 
Or maybe instead of forcing members to live off the local economy for housing, we build more housing on bases. It ain't rocket science, plenty if companies make prefab homes, start ordering them, drop them in place. Their argument for this new program is to make it so members aren't paying 40% of their salary to housing. Well of that's true, build more base housing and charge a fixed rate of say 20% or less of a members income. Members then have more disposable income to boost local economies

This would make it easier to move people, if housing is widely available. And mil housing needs to be at a significantly reduced rate or people would just buy on the economy. Make it worthwhile to live in the PMQs.
 
Makes you wonder how only Ottawa is in the green, from what I've seen. It's like the NCR staff started with their region first making sure they weren't screwed over like they were under the PLD system, and whatever was left was distributed to the other bases. Then they gloated that "we saved the government money" with $30m in savings by taking away from the major Navy bases. Insanity.
Anyone that had zero PLD will be in the green. Most will be just the pay increase, and some will also get CFHD, which is a good thing with the cost of living in the NCR, Comox and some other places that didn't have PLD. But they were getting paid less before they change, so that's why they are green instead of red at the new values.

I'm sure the analysis included looking at the impact of people losing PLD on the coasts and other bases, but kind of appalled to see how many people will have smaller pays as a result of this.

Yet another self goal, especially if GoC is trying to get closer to 2% GDP. This would have been the absolute easiest lever to use for that as it's 100% internal.
 
There are a dumber of differentiating factors:
1. CAF members cannot negotiate pay And are legally prohibited from doing so.
2. CAF orders members to relocate to certain places, irrespective of local housing markets at origin or destination.
3. CAF does not pay overtime and makes it tough to hold a second job, limiting members’ ability to supplement their base income. Deployments cannot be counted on for this.
4. CAF relocations can make it difficult for members’ spouses to hold down good jobs or achieve career growth (though less so for the navy).
5. A Cpl in Ottawa or Esquimault makes the same salary as a Cpl in Greenwood or Shilo. In some places, junior soldiers cannot afford reasonable housing on base pay.
6. CAF has gotten more and more out of providing subsidized housing directly to troops.
7. CAF equips members will skills and experiences that sets the better members up for finding other careers elsewhere.

If a private business were to fail to recruit and retain, the consequences are simply that that business may not be competitive and would fail.

Conversely, if CAF fails to recruit and retain, that comes at the immediate expense of Canada’s ability to generate combat capable forces to defend the national interest and to contribute to coalition forces. Therefore, the recruiting and, more importantly, retention of trained troops for CAF is a national security imperative. If the inability of junior troops to afford a decent quality of housing in some markets is enough of a dissatisfier to hurt retention, then CAF (and Treasury Board) can either ignore it and eat the loss, or can have something in place to mitigate it. They’ve chosen the latter. CFHD as newly constructed seems reasonable (although the 7 years thing is an issue), though for some the transition from PLD to CFHD will suck. Still, the overall notion of helping to offset higher costs of living, on a regional and means tested basis, is reasonable.

Generally industry hires people at pay rates that the local economy demands as well.

Hence why the coffee slingers in boom areas make a ton more money than those in bust areas. Which raises the COL. The CAF needs to take that into account when posting someone into these areas. We either need to provide the housing (PMQs) or provide a rate of pay or allowance that gives the member the ability to live in that area.
 
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