Alternate for the CIC

[Scott]

Ltmel, you were given advice by two Staff members, you were not attacked, you were corrected. I apologize for myself and on Michael's behalf if how you were corrected offends you.

Mandal, the discussion regarding CIC has been beaten to death, IMHO. I have enjoyed the last little while where there have been several good, quality posts from our CIC members, very informative. What I am fearing is that we are going to fall back down into the "CIC is the same as a PRes Officer" or "Why do CIC need the commission" or any one of the dozens of other useless debates that no doubt you have seen over the last few months.

I have been the first to say, on more than one occasion, that there are some CIC, some who post here, that are not so mature as the cadets they are supposed to be leading. I stood by that statement then as I stand by it now.

I am tired of these CIC debates, they always go nowhere.

 

[sgt_mandal]

Just tying to make a point, sir. But I will leave it alone now.

 

[Scott]

Mandal, I just didn't want to answer for combat_medic but did want to express my view, there was nothing wrong with what you asked. I agree that there are some very fine members of the CIC, I have seen them in action and have seen others post here and quite enjoy what they bring to the forums.

I guess it's just a case of a few bad apples ruining someone's perception of the whole lot.

 

[muskrat89]

Beyond the physically/medically unfit CICs out there, there are a great many I have dealt with who are the least professional people I have ever encountered. You know, there may be some who ARE the super youth-leaders; those who are trying hard to make a difference in kids' lives.

Now I will tell of MY experience , and I can name one CIL Officer that busted her ass to help the kids, could do drill, and didn't weigh 300 pounds - that would have been my Mother, who had time in the Militia years before - joined the CIL, and eventually transferred bacl to the Regiment, as a Finance Officer. I did see sacks of pus as CIC Offciers. I did see crappy drill. I did see swaggering goofballs, but I would say roughly half of the Cadet Instructors that I met did pretty well, overall. Certainly, not the 100% rate that you speak of combat_medic....

On another note, and I am speaking generally, and from my own opinions and hunches... most of us soldiers - Reserve or Regular, joined because we wanted to be soldiers. We like looking sharp, we like many or all of the things associated with soldiering.

Maybe some of the naysayers could enlighten me as to the goal of the Cadet Program in Canada. Is it to train professional soldiers? Develop our Officer Corps? No? Maybeeeeeee it is to develop youth. I think that many of the CIC folks joined to help the youth in the Community, and the fact that it had a "military flavour" was a bonus. It seems that they have a hard time attracting leaders as it is - so let's up the standards, run them to death, and play mind games for 8 weeks of training. I wonder how many CIC people we'd have then? I wonder what that would do to "the mission" - which all of us should agree, is the most important thing of all. No CIL Officers, no Corps - or maybe they start posting Officers out of Combat Units, in order to provide people to watch over the kiddies.

I agree with much of what c_m, Franko, scott, and others have said. The courses are short. The training is lacking. Many of these "Officers" look like sloths. But - they are only operating within the system that is in place! So - you may add - they don't need commissions. Again - that's not their choice...  Seems like y'all are barking up the wrong tree, to me.

 

[PViddy]

Greetings all.

I jumped into this post quite late, but some interesting reads none the less.

As a not quite Commissioned Officer in the CIC, and as a former cadet i know what a lot of Army.ca members are talking about when they refer to a sub standard CIC Officer,  as i have run into some in my time with the cadet system and even now as an Officer in the CF.   I am also in agreeance with some sort of raised standards for the CIC (which i think is happening curently, in terms of a new training system).

However, i think i can speak in general terms when i say most CIC Officers work very hard to earn your, memebers of the Reg and PRes, Respect.  I know i do.  CIC Officers come from a lot of different back grounds.  Some are lucky enough to have former cadet or military experience which, i can say, helps a lot when conducting training within the CF.  Alas, some are not lucky enough to have had prior experience and have to work twice as hard.  Some choose to enrol immediately after leaving cadets (generally not wise).
I guess what i am saying is, most of us are trying.

So thanks to you Ladies and Gentleman, i have learned quite a bit from this board from my Reg force, Pres and CIC mentors.  I hope to continue this.  I can only hope that one day i can have the chance to earn your respect and show you that the CIC is a proud and reputable unit within the CF.


cheers

PV

 

[amos933]

Since many of you have already brought your personal feelings about the CIC in here, I guess you won't mind if I continue off topic. I won't get into specifics since members here will just try to bash my points anyway.

First off I'd like to say this forum has been unfortunately side tracked by members looking to verbally bash the CIC, a few are even part of the Directing Staff. I don't care if you're polite or you include â Å“this is just my experienceâ ?, it still boils down to bashing another branch of the CF.

We all work within the frame work provided! The Regular Force, Reserves and CIC all have regulations and orders to follow, almost all of which are the same. These branches have further directives to amplify publications in regards to their specific branch. As members of the CF we each live within these guidelines, regulations and directives. Who are any of you to unconstructively question and criticize the framework of another branch?

Before you waist your time typing on the Cadets / CIC forum (where most viewers are Cadets and CIC Officers) you should educate yourself on the topic in which you bash. I know first hand that Cadets & CIC Officers would prefer to see constructive and informative information posted. There is no need to come back with comments such as â Å“In my experience thisâ ? or â Å“In my experience thatâ ?. I have read through the posts and can come back with a least a dozen statements about the CIC's enrolment, training and fitness that are inaccurate at best.

Personally I feel that you (Regular Force, Reserves, CIC Officers and Cadets) should maybe take the time to look at yourself, your Section and your Unit and ask â Å“What can I do to help improve the CF as a wholeâ ? then step up to the task. On a personal note, I go to work happy to know that I serve my country to the best of my ability everyday.

 

[Bean]

Rarely have I seen truer words in type.  Thanks Amos.

 

[Scott]

Since many of you have already brought your personal feelings about the CIC in here, I guess you won't mind if I continue off topic. I won't get into specifics since members here will just try to bash my points anyway.

Well that's not the attitude we encourage. I don't think anyone had personal feelings aired, I thought they were all brought up on a professional level, that's just me though. If you have something to say, say it, just be prepared to back it up.

First off I'd like to say this forum has been unfortunately side tracked by members looking to verbally bash the CIC, a few are even part of the Directing Staff. I don't care if you're polite or you include â Å“this is just my experienceâ ?, it still boils down to bashing another branch of the CF.

Bashing? Sorry, I don't see it that way. Am I bashing Cooks if I say that the food in Gagetown in 98 really sucked? Nope. I am stating an opinion based on experience what's wrong with that? It's not a slam against any cook, just the food in one place in one year when I ate there to be not so good. (Just an example, I love Cooks ;D)

We all work within the frame work provided! The Regular Force, Reserves and CIC all have regulations and orders to follow, almost all of which are the same. These branches have further directives to amplify publications in regards to their specific branch. As members of the CF we each live within these guidelines, regulations and directives. Who are any of you to unconstructively question and criticize the framework of another branch?

First part is true, I disagree with the last sentence as it pertains to this thread. What I saw was some people unconstructively replying to the criticism given resulting in a user being warned, not because he attacked a member of the DS or because he argued but because he violated the Conduct Guidelines. I get criticised every day, I have to live with it, it's a fact of my profession and, without it, who would get better at anything? If there was bashing then I will be the first to say that it's wrong, but what is bashing and what is not is a matter of opinion, no?

Before you waist your time typing on the Cadets / CIC forum (where most viewers are Cadets and CIC Officers) you should educate yourself on the topic in which you bash. I know first hand that Cadets & CIC Officers would prefer to see constructive and informative information posted. There is no need to come back with comments such as â Å“In my experience thisâ ? or â Å“In my experience thatâ ?. I have read through the posts and can come back with a least a dozen statements about the CIC's enrolment, training and fitness that are inaccurate at best.

I was in Cadets for five years, read my Mod intro in this forum. Stating that you saw something and tagging it with "in my experience" is not a comeback, it's part of a debate. I can say that,in my experience, I have seen CIC out and about that, IMHO, were not worthy of the uniform they were wearing. I can also say that, in my experience, I have served with troops that were not worthy of wearing the uniform. Wish to discuss places and times so that I must back up what I say? PM me and I'll be more than happy to provide you with examples, just like all are required to do here when presenting an argument, that's also in the Conduct Guidelines under "Qualifying Information".

Personally I feel that you (Regular Force, Reserves, CIC Officers and Cadets) should maybe take the time to look at yourself, your Section and your Unit and ask â Å“What can I do to help improve the CF as a wholeâ ? then step up to the task. On a personal note, I go to work happy to know that I serve my country to the best of my ability everyday.

Now here's a hearty slap on the back and a "cheers" to that! The CF, as a whole, must take an active role in the CCM so that we may further foster an interest in the CF among our young Canadians involved in these activities. Maybe you misinterpereted some of the misinterpretedthey weren't meant to bash, IMO, they were meant to be constructive.

 

[Ltmel]

"  We took home top NSCE in Saskatchewan last year,"

Pretty sure that didn't happen, you are referring to 2004?   

 

[Ltmel]

Well, good to see that nothing has changed during my time away....
Lets attempt to stay on track;

Here is my opinion, based on my experience.

1.  It all comes down to whether or not people believe in, and are willing to see their government support the cadet program.
  -If no, then you are in the wrong forum.
  -If yes, thenwho would you suggest should lead it?
          a.  Civilian Volunteers? (may be difficult to have any semblence of military org.)

 

[Ltmel]

sorry, accidentally posted(stupid tab)
     
*if the program is run by civi's-they cannot be expected to run even a quasi-military program
          b. Military Volunteers (difficult to guarantee involvement and little continuity.)
          c.  fill positons by posting Reg/PRes members into jobs at units (they don't have enough to do)

          d. A CIC Cadre

Okay, so we're stuck with the CIC.

2. Training Options;
    a.  No training (cheap and embarrassing)
      b. Some training  (somewhere in the middle)
    c. All training  (expensive, takes funding away from other facets of the military, as well as resources.  How well trained should a CIC officer be?)

3.  Alternative to the CIC
    a.  possibly an NCM cadre therefore, no requirement for commissions, yet a requirement for officers, to do officer jobs.  I think this was actually considered at one time, I see it as a viable option and I know a few CIC offices who would have eagerly joined as NCMs.
These people could easily be employed as instructors.  However, I still see the need for officers.


In conclusion, what other option do we really have?  I truly believe that with a little tweaking, the system currently in place could be even more effective and is more than sufficient.  No one has said that the current standards are enough, however, I have seen it mentioned that raising them could deter possible recruits, I agree wholeheartedly, but overall where do we draw the line?.  Maybe that is what we should be talking about.

I also pose a question to the Reg and PRes members who has been posting to this forum;

I have noticed relatively few CIC officers and cadets on this site(cadet/CIC forums) compared to the reg and PRes members.  i have often seen cadets, get warnings to go to their own site, and stay out of things that they do not understand. 
Why is it then, that so many of you seem to be out of your league here?

 

[Ltmel]

many more cadets and CIC officers on this site are way out of their league here, talking out of their behinds when confronted with some very legitimate comments about the CCM by people on this board.

Well, I disagree

Maybye if raised standards deter possible recruits to the CIC, then we find the root of the problem

Yes, I agree here, my only concern is what do we do in the meantime, and how do we attract better people to the CCM without negatively affecting the rest of the CF?

did a 10 day course, got a uniform and a scroll and then were let loose on cadets.

Again, On average, it is at least 2-3 years before a CIC officer is Commissioned, although it definitely wouldn't hurt to elongate that.

 

[Ltmel]

Just out of curiosity Piper, but since we are all talking from experience, how many years have you spent as an adult, instructing and administering the Cadet program?

 

[combat_medic]

sorry, accidentally posted(stupid tab)
     
*if the program is run by civi's-they cannot be expected to run even a quasi-military program
          b. Military Volunteers (difficult to guarantee involvement and little continuity.)
          c.  fill positons by posting Reg/PRes members into jobs at units (they don't have enough to do)

          d. A CIC Cadre

Okay, so we're stuck with the CIC.

You're forgetting option e: paid civilians. The military employs many civilians to do very important jobs, from doctors, to social workers, to clerks. The CIC have not always been commissioned members, it's actually a more recent development. If you have them sign a contract with the CF the same way as the civilian CF employees do, they will still be bound to many of the CF regulations, but without the requirement for military training, and without the necessity of a commission.

2. Training Options;
    a.  No training (cheap and embarrassing)
      b. Some training  (somewhere in the middle)
    c. All training  (expensive, takes funding away from other facets of the military, as well as resources.  How well trained should a CIC officer be?)

First off, making the CIC paid civilians would alleviate much of this, as trying to compress 3 weeks worth of drill lessons into a weekend is unreasonable and ridiculous. This would free up such time to teach them their duties as administrators of a cadet program, without any of the military training.

3.  Alternative to the CIC
    a.  possibly an NCM cadre therefore, no requirement for commissions, yet a requirement for officers, to do officer jobs.  I think this was actually considered at one time, I see it as a viable option and I know a few CIC offices who would have eagerly joined as NCMs.
These people could easily be employed as instructors.  However, I still see the need for officers.

At no point have you stated WHY there is a need for a CIC to be commissioned.

Would that be in order so that their NCMs will follow them? No, wait, they're never in command of military personnel.
Maybe so that they can command a military unit or formation? No, that would be beyond their scope.
In order to ensure they have a post-secondary education? No, the CIC is exempt from that requirement.
So that they're required to meet the CF medical and physical requirements to set an example for their cadets? No, yet again they aren't held to the minimum entry standards.
So that they can be held to the discplinary requirements of the NDA? Nope, us NCMs are still accountable, and the National Defense Act allots for the organization of the CF to consist of "such units and other elements as are from time to time organized by or under the authority of the Minister." outside of the regular and reserve force. So a seperate CIC entity could easily fall under such jurisdiction.

So, at what point is there a REQUIREMENT for a CIC to have a commission, other than it's just a nicety, given for a full 10 days of military-esque training?

I have noticed relatively few CIC officers and cadets on this site(cadet/CIC forums) compared to the reg and PRes members.  i have often seen cadets, get warnings to go to their own site, and stay out of things that they do not understand. 
Why is it then, that so many of you seem to be out of your league here?

I have worked with the cadets on countless occasions, both part-time, and full time on a cadet camp over the summer. The vast majority of people posting here are the same, and many are former cadets themselves. We all have experience with both the cadet world, and the military world. What cadet can make the claim to have served in both the cadets and the military?

Just because you haven't had any of the negative experiences that I and others have had, does not mean we don't know what we're talking about. Furthermore, I know a lot of Infantry Officers who nearly killed themselves in Gagetown to get their rank, and RMC cadets who spend FOUR YEARS working towards their commission who have a lot more reason to resent an overweight teenager with diabetes who has the same commission (not an exaggeration - I met a 19 year old CIC 2Lt who was about 5'4", 250lbs, and was diabetic).  Can you honestly look these officers in the face and tell them that you deserve your commission?

 

[Big Foot]

Ltmel, from what I saw last year in St-Jean, about 30 CIC officer cadets showed up, took some classes then 10 days later, they were commissioned. I don't see 2-3 years there. And after talking with some of them, I discovered they were my age or maybe a little older than I was, meaning 18-20 range. This means, from what I can tell, that there was no possible way they were in for 2-3 years. As for the issue of raising standards for CIC officers, I support that 100%. They must be held to some level of physical fitness, even if it is a low level. The extreme lack of fitness (eg: a few grossly overweight CIC Lts and Capts) does hurt the image of the CF. Consider this, anyone who wears the uniform of the Canadian military is responsible for the public image of the CF. Therefore, it is hurting the image of the CF to have people that are, too be perfectly honest, huge, in uniform. I don't know what has to be done but at any rate, they are very much hurting the reputation of the CF. Simply put, the CIC must do more on the whole to demonstrate that they deserve the respect that a commission brings. I have seen many people, warrants and sergeants, not salute CIC officers by virtue of the fact that they are CIC officers. Instead of complaining about the bad reputation that CIC officers have, these men and women MUST take it upon themselves to become fit and show that they are deserving of their commission, or else incidents of CICs not being salute by people within the PRes and Regs will continue. Somethings gotta be done, and if that means implementing fitness standards, so be it. Some CIC officers are simply a disgrace. I'm saying all this from my own personal experience, not wanting to really pass judgement on these people. I realise that there are good CIC officers but as we all know, people look at the negatives before considering the positives.

 

[Ltmel]

So how can you possibly know what the administration of the cadet program requires?  I don't understand how a 17 year old piper can possible fathom all that CIC officers do.  Its too bad that you have had no good experiences with the CIC, but you're hardly talking about a wide range of possible good experiences.  FYI, the ACF and CCF instructors are military members, volunteers also exist(like here), but British officers have a similarr system to ours, commissions and all.

 

but rather the mentality that many people get when they join it, especially the younger ones)

Yes I often see the same thing with underage members of the Pres

I'm sorry, a 10 day course does not give you the right to call yourself an officer.

Actually , it does.  It is your problem if you have a problem respecting the Queen's commission, it shouldn't matter where it came from.

I don't comment on things on which I have no practical experience.

Obviously, you do.  I'm tired of quoting your lack of knowledge.  So you spent a summer working at a cadet camp(as an adult) and you didn't like what you saw, I suppose the CIC were the only people drinking and engaging...  P{point being you still do not know what is required for the administration of the program.

Finally, If you want to complain about the CIC, instead coming up with a new alternative, start a new post.
How many times must everyone re-iterate their reasons for disliking us?  Suck it up, do something about it then.  Patience and friendly advice go a long-way, much further than bashing, complaining and sitting in the back of the room getting angry.

 

[Ltmel]

Bigfoot,
  Did you actually see these people being promoted or just qualified?  I have a hard time understanding how they could have been promoted right there, unless they already had their time in.

I agree, members of the CIC need to take it upon themselves to get fit.  Many of us do.
However, I must mention the numerous Reg and PRes members that look no better.
Many people are a disgrace to the uniform, from all parts of the CF, in dress, Physical fitness and deportment, I'm sure you can name a few.

I hope that the changes being made currently are as effective as many of us hope, I guess we'll see in a couple of years.  What do you think of what is being changed now?

 

[Ltmel]

I don't recall saying that we do require commissions.  Under most circumstances, We don't

I have had Reg and PRes members under my command.  Many CIC do.  What happens when a CO of a Cadet Camp is in command of everyone posted there? Or the detachment commander? Thank-you for helping me find a situation where we do require commissions.

have worked with the cadets on countless occasions, both part-time, and full time on a cadet camp over the summer.The vast majority of people posting here are the same, and many are former cadets themselves. We all have experience with both the cadet world, and the military world. What cadet can make the claim to have served in both the cadets and the military?

I say again:  You have not administered the cadet program from any level.  Instruction does not count.  How can you know what the CIC requires?  Could you even tell me what we do?

 

[combat_medic]

Yes I often see the same thing with underage members of the Pres

- Then again, all us Maggots have to pass the CF Express test yearly and the CIC do..... nothing. The PRes have to meet physical entry requirements to join up and the CIC... do nothing. Hmmmm

Actually , it does. It is your problem if you have a problem respecting the Queen's commission, it shouldn't matter where it came from.

And if you think, even for a second, that the commission you had thrown at you in less than a quarter of the time it took me to earn a single chevron entitles you to my respect, you're absolutely kidding yourself. If I went up to a Reg Force private and tried to tell him to put his heels together for me, I would be laughed at, and rightfully so. He would not respect my authority over him anymore than anyone here respects your authority over anyone other than children.

If you think your commission is on par with serving members of the CF, then you are as deluded, and as much a part of the problem with the CIC than the other "officers" which are being spoken of unfavourably. Everyone else earned their commission, yours was handed to you on a silver platter. Short of not being a registered sex offender, you had to meet virtually no requirements to join. You spent a couple weekends in a classroom, put on a uniform once or twice, and are given a scroll, which you think means you've earned the respect of the CF. Others spend months, if not years earning it, marching for kilometres on broken ankles, suffering sleep deprivation, physical exhaustion, and other harships which I doubt you can even fathom, and you DARE to call yourself their equal?! I'm not even an officer and I find that offensive.

Obviously, you do. I'm tired of quoting your lack of knowledge. So you spent a summer working at a cadet camp(as an adult) and you didn't like what you saw, I suppose the CIC were the only people drinking and engaging... Point being you still do not know what is required for the administration of the program.

You know what? In the civilian world I'm an administrator for a national youth program. My job is extremely challenging and requires a lot more background and skills than most CICs will bring to the table, so I'm intimately familiar with what is involved. If I was handed a commission for doing this job, it would mean as little to me as yours does, and would be deserving of as much respect.

How many times must everyone re-iterate their reasons for disliking us? Suck it up, do something about it then. Patience and friendly advice go a long-way, much further than bashing, complaining and sitting in the back of the room getting angry.

If you had bothered to read any of the previous pages of these threads, you would have seen a great deal of advice, suggestions, and other ways in which the CIC could be improved. You're the one continuously being offended and, if I recall correctly, started verbally attacking and threatening the members of this forum. As it stands, you have behaved more poorly than the cadets which you claim to lead. You discount all misbehaviour on the parts of your ilk and claim that a queen's commission is required to lead a group of children, without so much as a single reason as to why. Your replies are juvenile and lack any substance, and are so offended by the claims that there are poor CIC out there, that it leads me to the natural conclusion that you must be one of them. Every other cadet and CIC officer posting here, with the exception of yourself, has acknowledged the obvious problems with the CIC as it stands, and have mentioned ways in which they are trying to change that image. Your posts are the intellectual equivalent of a little child sticking his tongue out and screaming; "I'm already heeeere, you can't stop meeee."

Finally, in my capacity as a medic, I have worked for civilian doctors working under contract with the CF, and I am obliged to follow them, and have been under the direction of other civilians throughout my career. None of them have commissions, and did not require them, neither do you.

 

[Burrows]

If you feel you need a scroll of comission to do your job properly then you are not thinking right.  I have seen many incompetant officers in my cadet time... Including one who attempted to bring me forward to the base CO because I did not salute him as an officer cadet or "check my arms" which is an informal drill movement invented by mentally incapable officers and staff cadet who feel they need people to walk past them at attention. 

When some Ultra Godlike officer who is comissioned in a matter of days tries to get high and mighty with ANY other member of the CF then they deserve whatever they get.  My officers with the exception of a police officer have all spent time in either the militia or in the case of one in the RegF as NCMs and as such dont act all high and mighty to the NCMs that assist with our training.  I can guarantee you that it earns more respect to be nice to the soldiers putting their lives on the line each day than barking at them because you didnt salute the CIC Officer cadet or 10 days to comission.  *thinks* That might be a good title for a controversial book... 10 days to comission...*thinks*

If you feel that you have right to walk into an armoury and say to some random NCM or Officer junior to you in rank "Hey wheres my salute I DEMAND a salute"  I wouldnt blame them if they rendered you a new hole to release fecal matter from.

That said I know that many CIC officers are different and it is those ones I respect.  Well said combat_medic.