Alternate for the CIC

[Ltmel]

Would someone mind telling me where I "demanded" anything?
Obviously none of you are interested in discussing alternatives to the CIC.

If you feel you need a scroll of commission to do your job properly then you are not thinking right

Where did I say this?  I do recall citing specific circumstances, where one would be required, but i actually said that we did not require one under most circumstances, I quote myself;

I don't recall saying that we do require commissions.  Under most circumstances, We don't

claim that a queen's commission is required to lead a group of children, without so much as a single reason as to why.

reasons? I quote myself again;

What happens when a CO of a Cadet Camp is in command of everyone posted there? Or the detachment commander? Thank-you for helping me find a situation where we do require commissions.

and finally, take your own advice

If you had bothered to read any of the previous pages of these threads, you would have seen a great deal...

 

[Infanteer]

Har, I love these threads.

How can you know what the CIC requires?   Could you even tell me what we do?

Give me 10 days and I'll find out, I guess....

 

[combat_medic]

However, I still see the need for officers.

I don't recall saying that we do require commissions.  Under most circumstances, We don't

What happens when a CO of a Cadet Camp is in command of everyone posted there? Or the detachment commander? Thank-you for helping me find a situation where we do require commissions.

I quote you. You see the need for CIC officers, and yet posted again to say there was no need, you then posted denying you ever said there was a need for officers, then went back to post reasons as to why officers are required. You have not presented a valid argument for either. I can't decide if you just haven't made up your own mind on the issue or you suffer from multiple personality disorder and are therefore changing your mind each time you post.

You asked for alternatives, I mentioned the employment of paid civilians, which you either completely missed or totally ignored. Others mentioned the various cadet programs in other countries, which you never addressed, or dismissed because they didn't prove whatever particular point you had chosen for that moment.

You asked for our combined experiences, which we all provided in detail. You asked for first hand knowledge. Again, the members here provided. You defamed the members of this forum, and we continued to address you. We asked you legitimate questions to which you either didn't reply at all, or couldn't formulate a valid answer. At NO POINT have you presented what could be construed as an argument even by the loosest definition of the term. You seem to be nothing but insulting and petty, and cannot discern the difference between constructive criticism and character attacks (although if you need assistance discovering the latter, I'm sure some of the Sr NCOs and CSM/RSMs on the board would happily oblige you... heck I'll give it a crack if you ask nicely).

Burrows and the other cadets here, even when in disagreement with me, are posting with far more intelligence and reason than you have displayed thus far, and yet you claim to be their leader?! I would hope that they wouldn't even follow you out of curiosity. Furthermore, none of them have had to resort to threats and profanity to get their point across.

 

[PViddy]

This thread has turned to shambles.  I am literally shaking my head in shame as some of you call yourself members of the Canadian Forces.


that's to bad.

PV

 

[Burrows]

What happens when a CO of a Cadet Camp is in command of everyone posted there? Or the detachment commander?

Cadet camp CO's do work full time as do RCSU officers.  They are trained to a higher degree than the "instant officer"

and finally, take your own advice -- If you had bothered to read any of the previous pages of these threads, you would have seen a great deal...

  Please don't insult the directing staff or any other member... combat_medic is one of the finest people I have ever had the pleasure of working with and I take any insult to my counterparts as a great insult to myself.  The DS know their responsibilities and they are upheld.

 

[McG]

Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, to (Name)

Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty's Canadian Armed Forces. With Seniority of the (day) day of (Month) (Year).

We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage and Integrity, do by these Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be an officer in our Canadian Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and diligently to discharge your Duty as such in the rank of Second Lieutenant or in such other Rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased to promote or appoint you to, and you are in such manner and on such occasions as may be prescribed by Us to exercise and well discipline both the Inferior Officers and Non Commissioned Members serving under you and use your best endeavour to keep them in good Order and Discipline. And We do hereby Command them to Obey you as their Superior Officer, and you to observe and follow such Orders and Directions as from time to time you shall receive from Us, or any your Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of the Trust hereby reposed in you.

Those words are not about having passed longer more gruelling courses.   They are not tied to LCF.   They do not bestow some social status deserving of blind unearned respect.

Does the CIC officer require a commission?   Should the CIC CO be less accountable if a cadet is killed in training than a regular force CO would be if a soldier were killed?   Who is responsible for the administration of a corps' budget?   If you are content that the same accountability and responsibility should not be asked of a CIC officer as would be demanded of a regular force officer, then they should not get the commission.  

As far as fitness standards and longer courses are concerned, I think the arguments need a little more meat.   Is image a justifiable reason to impose greater fitness standards?   Probably not (as much as we may not like that).   Is the expectation that a CIC officer should be able to lead adventure training and respond to emergencies a justifiable reason to impose greater fitness standards?   I think so.

For all the complaints of ten day courses, where are the identified training shortfalls?

 

[Infanteer]

I am literally shaking my head in shame as some of you call yourself members of the Canadian Forces.

Thanks for the advice bud, I'll take that to heart.

Those words are not about having passed longer more gruelling courses.   They are not tied to LCF.

Aren't they about commanding soldiers?   I would assume this is what "Canadian Armed Forces" would get at.

In the end, the piece of paper is just like medals, fancy decorations.   I am really not thrown off by the scroll - if CIC (or any other Commissioned Officer) thinks it gives them licence to be a pompous ass (I've see this in a few Army Officers as well), then that is their problem.   This seems to be a problem I've seen on these pages (RESPECT ME NOW!!!).

Does the CIC officer require a commission?   Should the CIC CO be less accountable if a cadet is killed in training than a regular force CO would be if a soldier were killed?   Who is responsible for the administration of a corps' budget?   If you are content that the same accountability and responsibility should not be asked of a CIC officer as would be demanded of a regular force officer, then they should not get the commission.

Where is the commission required for accountability?   Should we commission Boy Scout and Girl Guide Leaders and Swim Team Coaches in order to ensure that they are accountable?  Do they require "especial trust" to carry out their duties?

As far as fitness standards and longer courses are concerned, I think the arguments need a little more meat.   Is image a justifiable reason to impose greater fitness standards?   Probably not (as much as we may not like that).

I would hope that role models would appear to have some sort of ability to run for more then 10 meters.   What sort of example are we setting by being less demanding in our youth leaders?

For all the complaints of ten day courses, where are the identified training shortfalls?

How is it that teachers require 5 years of post secondary education to teach children and NCO's require years of experience and weeks of training before they are allowed to march around recruits?   Should we not be ensuring that leaders of a National Youth movement are given a bit more training?

Anyways, this is just another stupid "CIC" spin-cycle that seems to boil up on the thread every few months - has everyone gotten out what they want to say?   Is the CIC honor still intact?   See you guys at the races....

 

[badpup]

Well said MCG 

though I have recently started posting my thoughts, here, I have been a reader of this forum for some time, and it is distressing to me at the number of "supposed" CF members who continuously slag members of the CIC and the cadets they serve.
It is true that there are some CIC that do not portray the image of the CF as many would like, however where are you, the active members of the CF when it comes to dealing with Cadets?
I have seen many instances of rudeness, and disrespect by members of the RF/PRes directed at cadets and the CIC. This makes those of you who participate in such actions far worse than the "shabby" CIC officer you seem to like  pointing out.
Irregardless of how the commission was earned, it is still a commission, and thus deserving of your respect. Disrespect of any officer, or NCO is disrespect of the Crown and our Nation. It makes one think that perhaps it is those of you who cannot accept this as being the persons whose actions and behaviour are not worthy of wearing the uniform.

Leave the Cadets alone, they are eager youth who wish to emulate you, and are doing far better than many of our youth today.
They have respect and admiration for you, return the courtesy.
Assist the CIC officers all you can, many are accepting of your comments, and courtesies and even your suggestions on improvement.
Also remember this; that in todays Cadet movement the Politically Correct have won the day, and have nearly removed anything remotely military from the training. As well that the hands of the Officers and instructors have been tied in relation to the teaching of military principles, and discipline.

 

[Infanteer]

Maybe I missed something here - who was trashing the Cadets on this thread?

 

[Ltmel]

!. Paid volunteers- sure, why not, how exactly would that work?  Most of us only get paid for a fraction of our time now.
2.  ACF and CCF- ARE COMMISSIONED.  Their system is very similar to ours, someone mentioned previously that most are teachers-true, as well as in Canada
3.  Camp CO's are not always RCSU, often, but it is not a requirement-only experience and rank.

 

[Ltmel]

What does everyone(maybe a few CIC could reply here) think of the current changes to our training program and standards?
I know I have brought it up before, but I think that many of the changes could be really positive, its nice to know that our surveys may have been taken into consideration!

 

[badpup]

Maybe I missed something here - who was trashing the Cadets on this thread?

Perhaps not in this thread Infanteer, but in many many others that I have read over time.
My point is for all, whether you are Reg/ Res/ CIC/ CIV/, or even a Cadet, Give others the respect that you yourself would like to recieve, and it will be returned. Remember everyone that respect not only needs to be given in a civil society, but that it also needs to be earned.

 

[badpup]

What does everyone(maybe a few CIC could reply here) think of the current changes to our training program and standards?
I know I have brought it up before, but I think that many of the changes could be really positive, its nice to know that our surveys may have been taken into consideration!

My Opinion Ltmel
Changes to the CIC program:  Positive......A step in the right direction, however small a step it is
Changes to the Cadet Program: negative...... soon the DND will provide pinkfuzzy bunny suits for the cadets to wear, all different so they can not be known as uniform.

 

[Ltmel]

yeah, the program changes are worse.  I thought that after the initial adventure training program was brought in, we were going in the right direction, but it seems we are back tracking again.  (now that I understand the difference between qualified and certified!)Pretty soon we'll have another drought like after chap was initially instituted and they got rid of CLIP.

Training changes-a start-I hope it continues- I am beginning to think it has a lot more to do with pride than training though.  My biggest worry is that our training will start to take away from the rest of the CF if it goes to far-- --okay that will probably never happen, but then people will have a real reason to have disdain for us.
  Its too bad the CIC don't have more camaraderie with eachother-I really think that could make the difference.

 

[badpup]

Distance my friend, there are not usually a large number of CIC officers at any one place at any one time.
As well the fact that after the uniform comes off for the week, the other ones go on (Civvy job/ family responsibility/Unpaid cadet work)
Some also don't have a great deal of military interest outside of the Cadet corps, which is their prerogative, but unfortunate.

 

[Bean]

I agree that the changes are a positive first step, but must be followed on by a number of additional changes in the near future.  I have to agree with many others here that our fitness standards need to be raised and a formal program implemented, but I've said that numerous times here before.  Perhaps we need to expand the role of distance learning as well to cover some of the training gaps (i.e. mandatory OPME participation, or follow the COmmsRes model of doing certain courses at distance with regular lectures or conference calls for discussion, that was in the plans a couple years ago not sure how its going though).  I am really looking forward to the National School organization as it will make some significant improvements in standardizing further the training available and being delivered.

 

[Sgt.Fitzpatrick]

CIC should be comission because they they officers in the CF it that simple. I don't know why people
question this.

 

[Burrows]

Fitzpatrick... It was an alternative...hes saying dont make them CF Officers.

 

[badpup]

Other issues of govt also need to be addressed, ones that affect not only CIC, but the PRes as well.
There needs to be federal legislation to grant Reservists training leave from the Civvy world without fear of repercussion/dismissal from and by the employer. Unlike Reg Force, Reservists have other jobs and responsibilities as well. Soldiering pays your bills, Our Civilian occupations pay ours, and until we have laws in place such as the Americans do, we can't be expected to train and make decisions that have an adverse effect on our families.
I do agree that there certainly should be more training for Officers in the CIC, but not at a price on the families of those Officers.
I also do not defend the "Pompous" attitudes displayed by some (NOT ALL) CIC I too have seen that first hand.
In my own experience I can see the point put across by some of the Reg Force posters, I too have had difficulty respecting some superior Officers due to attitudes. Never the less I do show the respect due by virtue of Office and position. I may not care for Prime Minister Martin for example, however I will respect his office and obey the lawful orders of his government.

Perhaps it is best to live by the Maxim "Treat others as you yourself would wish to be treated"
Any other way and you have no right to complain.

 

[McG]

The point being discussed here is that they should not have the commission because they SHOULD NOT be CF officers due to the level of training they receive.

Basically, if the CIC does the same training and adheres to the same standards that everyone else in the Officer corps has to do, then I have no problem with them holding a commission.

What training would you have them do?  What standards would you have them adhere to?  Why? 

A commission is not about image.  It charges an individual with a duty (and the all the responsibility and accountability that must come with it) and gives the individual the authority to execute that duty.  As we hold CIC officers to the same level of accountability and demand the same responsibility as from reserve officers, then should we not give them the same recognition?  The only argument against this would be if our CIC were not members of the CF.