Alternate for the CIC

[PViddy]

Healthy Living used to be a PO in the older cadet handbooks... That should be brought back and officers held accountable for their health.  Well said combat_medic 

You are very general here, but i must assume you mean your specific elemen.  The air cadet program still has sensible living in a lot of our levels.

Unfortunately that 10 days of training is not enough to learn what the military is about 

Does everyone think 10 days of training is all we do ? their are tons of courses to do after BOQ (BMQ to you guys i guess).  No the training is not as elaborate as Pres and Regs but i do not need to know how to field strip a C-9 or Carl G.
We all have our specific jobs,


PV

 

[badpup]

Many of them do PV, however it is an attitude I have generally seen from those other than a Senior NCO or Officer, for the most part with them I was always treated with respect.

 

[Ltmel]

its true- CIC in admin positions in Afgan.

 

[Ltmel]

Does everyone think 10 days of training is all we do ? their are tons of courses to do after BOQ (BMQ to you guys i guess).   No the training is not as elaborate as Pres and Regs but i do not need to know how to field strip a C-9 or Carl G.
We all have our specific jobs,

Bravo!
The CIC basic Officer Qual. Course is ten days. However, that just lets you stay an officer.   After this course and one year working with a unit(yes I agree this is insufficient-it was actually one of our survey questions-to which most CIC officers responded the same way I did) then ,we are qualified for promotion(and of course comes the commission).  Most CIC officers are officer cadets for at least two years.
The decision to shorten the BOQ course was made because of limited funding.
I know this doesn't improve the sit much, but candidates are also required to do much of the work at home(Pre-study packages) , then take the tests on course- this was done to cut down on the time required on course(=less pay, ect)
Also. as above, remember that this is only one course of many and most CIC training is OJT.

What would you rather see? and where should the funding come from if you would like to see longer courses?

 

[McG]

But they have to meet the same entry standards, must be physically fit, must have a post-secondary degree, must be medically fit, and all have to pass the basic officer qualification.

Except that the PRes officer qualification is different from the regular force officer qualification which is different from the CIC officer qualification.   Who's course should set the standard?   Is regular force IAP the standard, or should it be IAP and BOTP?   Would the content of the PRes BMOQ be a better base line?  

Not all reserve or regular force officers require a degree.   There are frequently exceptions made, not the least of which is for CFRs.   I know of exceptions being made for community college.   I've also known a few reserve officers to enrol while in university but never finish.   Should all of these individuals be punted?

As for medically and physically fit, I agree that that would be a nice requirement for the sake of image (and we would argue this even if the CIC did not have commissions because they are CF members).   However, is it necessary?   Infanteer mentioned the value of these requirements for making role models, yet Terry Fox managed to become a national role model despite the fact that he certainly would not have been medically fit.

I don't have much to add else, but combat_medic makes the point that only CIC officers are not held to the same entry standards as the rest of the CF officer corps. That is why they should not hold the commissions that they do. Simple really.

But once enrolled, the reserves are not held to the same training standards as the regular force, so why should they be allowed commissions?

Instead of preaching everyone must be the same, why not set out quantifiable standards that you feel the CIC are lacking (or that you feel should be the minimum for all officers)?  

The Rangers do not hold commissions (so your comparsion that you used is a moot point in this discussion MCG)

I've made no comparisons to the Canadian Rangers, but thanks for coming out.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

its true- CIC in admin positions in Afgan.

Um....sure about this one?  Not on my watch and I just cannot see it in a military context (perhaps as a civvy employee - CANCAP/CFPSA).

TR

 

[Ltmel]

Um....sure about this one?  Not on my watch and I just cannot see it in a military context (perhaps as a civvy employee - CANCAP/CFPSA).

yep, as a CIC officer, in uniform.

 

[Infanteer]

:boring:

Are we done yet?

 

[PViddy]

  Are we done yet?

Are we not using this forum for what it is meant to be used for ?  I am trying to civilize my points as a gentleman should.

Mostly for the CIC folk in here but, you guys have probably noticed their are changes in the works as we speak, i know of a couple of people in my area that have had a medical discharge for one reason or another.

I think we will see a lot of changes that were discussed on this forum actually implemented in some form or another.  Changes in training are already taking place, unfortunately it can't be an overnight thing.


cheers

PV

 

[Michael OLeary]

yep, as a CIC officer, in uniform.

Since we probably do not have a corps of Canadian Cadets in Afghanistan, it is highly unlikely that he is there "as a CIC officer." He may currently be a CIC officer, but he must have prior service, experience or qualifications that made him suitable for selection in a staff appointment on the mission as a Primary Reservist.

 

[badpup]

This is exactly the type of point many of us  are making, don't discount the knowledge, and capabilities of some of the Cadre just because of a few that are less than pefect specimens.

 

[foxtwo]

I don't know about CIC's since I don't know exactly who they fall under, they don't belong to the CAS or 1 CAD

CIC's are reservist though because they too have to be commissioned. If they were needed anywhere else, they would have to go I'm pretty sure. It's weird how he explained it...

 

[c_canuk]

during war traditionally CIC officers do misc drudgery paperwork back home to free up more experianced officers for more active roles... not sure if that would apply to todays military, but they are supposed to be able to fill that role

 

[elscotto937]

Wow, this has gone on a very long time. Let me put some points out there for those who will take the time to read them.

1. To those in the CIC who continue to use examples of retired service personnel who join the CIC and subsequently get picked up for some Class B Contract in their former role(operational tour), you may not have realized it but it is not because they were CIC. And by your incessant need to bring them up as examples to justify your worth, you are doing the same thing as you have accused everyone else of doing, allowing a portion of the CIC to be held up as the norm.

2. To the others out there who question the CICs need to be commissioned officers and can pontificate on the lack of standards out there. Yes, it is true other their training is severely lacking for them to hold the Queen's Commission and wear the uniform of the Canadian Forces. Also, I'm sure that the majority of you respect the CIC for the job they do with the youth of Canada, because a good portion of their time is on a volunteer basis (I think they only get paid for 20 days throughout the Cadet year). Finally, just understand that the CIC officers that are arguing these points may have not had the benefit of being a soldier and looking in at the CIC, so they might not get it, try as you might to beat it in to their heads that they are not soldiers, airmen, or sailors, all you efforts might be falling on deaf ears.

Thank you for your time,

Scott

 

[Riobeard]

Scott you are bang on as are so many other folks who posted here.
1) The CIC are not trained to a standard where they can do anything but train cadets
2) IF they were required to anything else, they would have to retrain from pretty much the ground up
3) There are lots of wanna be's in the CIC who would otherwise not qualify for any other position with the CF (including the Rangers)
I can speak from experience, as I've been PRes, Reg Force and now am CIC.  I actually trained (then CIL) CIC officers in the '70's and I can tell you that the training standards then were a lot tougher than today but still didn't even come close to PRes or Reg Force.  Complaint back then was same as today about so many CIC's thinking they were more than what they really were. 
Reason I got into the CIC was my kids got into Cadets and I wanted to help out, got sucked into the vortex and voila, here I am.  Believe me, if I could have been brought in at my former rank of M/Cpl, or as an NCM I would have been just as happy but took the commission so I could do more to help out.
As for the comments some have made about never meeting a CIC officer who they could respect, I can empathise with you, but there are some of us out there who don't pretend to be more than we currently are or have been and I would hope that we make a difference to the cadets whom we instruct and bring honour and respect to the uniform we wear despite the failings of others among us.

 

[Duke]

As for the comments some have made about never meeting a CIC officer who they could respect, I can empathise with you, but there are some of us out there who don't pretend to be more than we currently are or have been and I would hope that we make a difference to the cadets whom we instruct and bring honour and respect to the uniform we wear despite the failings of others among us.

Right on!

Duke

 

[McG]

they are not soldiers, airmen, or sailors,

This leads to the question that then deserves debate.  Should CIC be members of the CF?  If they are members of the CF, then the argument for a commission is that the accountability of a CIC officer is commensurate with that of an officer (responsibility for the unit, the safety/well-being of its members, its finances, its level of training, and its overall effectiveness).  However, if not members of the CF there is no need to commission the CIC.

 

[combat_medic]

Neither, in my opinion, are chaplains or dental officers. So what?

A Chaplain is, indeed a member of the branch to which he belongs. He must meet the requirements to join, and takes basic training, minus the weapons training as he is a non-combattant. Dental Officers are members of the medical branch, which is now its own branch, so he is as much a soldier, sailor or airman as an MO or Medic is. Certainly no one has questioned the validity of having medical personnel in the CF.

Your argument for either of these holds very little water. All CS/CSS trades provide valuable support to the military in places where it is needed. The CIC is an organization that is a group for children which does not directly or indirectly support the CF other than in promoting interest and the occasional recruiting base. Not a valid comparison.

 

[Riobeard]

Your argument for either of these holds very little water. All CS/CSS trades provide valuable support to the military in places where it is needed. The CIC is an organization that is a group for children which does not directly or indirectly support the CF other than in promoting interest and the occasional recruiting base. Not a valid comparison.

One point to your post to clarifiy, we don't train Children.  Children are legally defined as those under the ages of 12.  Cadets are 12 - 18 years of age. 

 

[McG]

The Canadian officer corps has gone a long way to reinvent itself as a proffessional establishment since 1905.  The whole CF has transformed significantly in those last 100 years.  It would be foolish to argue that the CIC belong in the CF as commissioned officers based on what was the norm even 20 years ago.