Ammo Budgets and Training Expenses

[Enzo]

I go to my local shop and they once had 5.56mm ammo (65gr. ball, nothing fancy, just basic stuff) for $250 (after taxes) for a 1000 round crate, that works out to ~$0.25/per rd.

Here's a quick bit of research:

http://www.marstar.ca/ammo/556x45mm.htm

Winchester 55gr. ball - 1200rds @ $315CAD + shipping and taxes works offhand to ~$0.30-35/pre rd.

And as with anything, the more you order, the more you can negotiate a happier price. This was just after a minute of looking, I'm sure some time invested would reveal better deals than this, etc.

Kirk - Live training is always money well invested as you're certain to get a good return eventually. I hate to put it in those terms but it seems to be the language spoken by those who make such decisions unfortunately.

 

[KevinB]

Some units have tried to use local ranges -- but they are not approved for DND usage - so then you cannot use DND weapons -- and you cannot use non DND supplied ammo in DND weapons, and vice versa - no DND ammo in non DND weapons

 

[Kirkhill]

There you go with those "rules things" again Infidel.

 

[couchcommander]

There you go, we need a nice juicey contract to supply "approved" rounds (i.e. ATK m855) to DND ranges across the country, from one happy distributor.

I'd make it real easy. Just sign.  ;D

 

[KevinB]

Well those rules things are one reason I am now in the public sector...  I played fast and loose with a lot of rules (DND ammo in civy vehicle for a out of province shoot..., DND weapons in a civy vehicle [albiet that one was authorised by a LCOL] etc). 
 

The MAIN problem that I identified in my service was the problems with the SENIOR part of the CoC not understanding small unit combat or shooting.

Look at the watered down PWT's as an example -- we now put more people in harms way with less of a standard 

 

[vonGarvin]

someone needs to seriously smash some heads to make SOLDIER SKILLS the number ONE priority.

Agree 100%!!!

The fact of the matter is that in counter insurgency warfare that the LIGHT Infantryman is KING -- fast air and artillery are not as usefull as some of the talking heads make beleive.  Troops with proper marksmanship training will be a force multiplier - as one they will prolong their lives with accurate and timely shooting --- and unlike uncontroleld CAS and Artillery doesnot increase the size of an insurgency due to "collatoral" damage of civilians.

Again, agree, but maybe 85%.  There are uses for infantry protected by armour, be it LAV, RG-31, Millenium Falcon, whatever

If it where up to me -- I'd scrap LAV funding (ammo etc.) for the Inf -- and concentrate on the basic soldier skills that are needed to survive and triumph in the GWOT

Here I would disagree.  I wouldn't scrap an ounce of LAV funding NEITHER WOULD I keep the ammo allotments for basic soldier skills at their current pathetic levels.  If given a choice, I would say "start at the basics, and then work up from there".  Having said that, one Canadian Soldier's life saved is worth all the bazillion dollars for bullets and realistic training.

 

[KevinB]

I'd give the LAV over to the Armd -- run all INF as Light -- any moron can disembark from a LAV is they are required for operations the Armd can run them.  Concenrtation of the INF has to be on the CLOSE WITH AND DESTROY.  To me that means bullets from rifle/carbine/LMG - and pistol to an extent.

*With this being my 4k post - I really must get out more

 

[vonGarvin]

I'd give the LAV over to the Armd -- run all INF as Light -- any moron can disembark from a LAV is they are required for operations the Armd can run them.  Concenrtation of the INF has to be on the CLOSE WITH AND DESTROY.  To me that means bullets from rifle/carbine/LMG - and pistol to an extent.

Again, I agree with your point that the concentration of the INF is to CLOSE WITH AND DESTROY.  "IF" that were all we did, then LAVs would be everywhere.  However, as you said earlier, in COIN, one word: dismounted, dismounted, dismounted.  (Ok, that's three words, or one word three times)
As for mech inf ops, the armd is the last I'd give the LAV too (and you can see from my profile where I work).  This is NOT a slag on them (they have their jobs and they do it well).  Just as the infantry cannot tie itself to one weapon as a defining characteristic, neither can it tie itself to one vehicle as a defining characteristic (black caddys, LAVs, LukeSkywalker "landspeeders", whatever).  There are times for mech ops, times for light ops, and both have advantages and disadvantages (protection, collateral damage, etc etc).

*With this being my 4k post - I really must get out more

From your latter post, I guess the lack of night life there must be socially harming you
:cheers:

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

What I don't get (amounts many things) is why CSS are allowed to score less then me even though we shoot the same amount a year.
I think we also need to change how ranges are run and make them as realistic as possible.  Convoy runs, ambushes 360, ambushes with IED's etc.  There must be more play in how we run ranges, more sim training, more paint ball, more laser tag (although in an environment as most similar to A Stan, say California.)

 

[KevinB]

The standard for Infantry should always be higher than non Infantry -- since it is th 031's bread and butter, and the 031 have much more access to shooting than other trades.

I can find no use for paintball training - due to its design it teach faults - faults that can be deadly -- much better off to stick to live fire training, Sims for use of force and training prior to live CQB, and for open field engagements using MILES2000 systems.


The training year must be streamlined to allow for this.  And unit budgets and focus adjusted accordingly

 

[vonGarvin]

Paintball (like any other sport or pseudo-sport) is good for team building, etc.  Having said that, do NOT replace a C7A2 (or whatever) with a Nelspot 007.
Potato guns?  Now THAT's trainin'!  ;D

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Its been a few years since I dealt with ammo budgets, but I seem to recall that LFCAs budget was in the 20 million dollar mark for Reg and Reserve.  We did "pay" something on the order of $ .80 for a 5.56mm round.  Bear in mind that the cost to the unit was notional, we didn't deal in cash.  I believe that ammo budgets are now dealt with in "natures."  We can argue the cost of a bullet, but the fact of the matter is that it costs that much for us. 

Based on some quick calculations, if we turned our entire ammo bugdet over to 5.56mm ball we could approach offering 5,000 rounds for all soldiers.  That would mean no blank, no 7.62mm 4B1T, no 5.56mm 4B1T, no pyro, no arty ammo, no 25mm, no arty ammo etc.  Training budgets are a bit like economics in that you have to balance your choices.  You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you get what you need. 

I would offer that if we had to work inside the current envelope, we could make some reallocations over time from things like 84mm to 5.56mm ball.  I would also offer up some TOW rounds, AD missiles and heck, even 105mm tank.  We spend a lot of money on arty ammo.  Cutting their ammo looks attractive, but I like the idea of the gunners being well trained.

With the "Levels of Capability" we now have a huge number of soldiers firing only PWT 1 for a whopping 30 rounds.  When organizing training during my last tour at the Regiment I was restricted to ordering enough ammo to achieve the required standard.  Soldiers deploying do Level 2 and maybe 3.  The problem with leaving the extra shooting for people going on tour is that there is so much other stuff going on.  I'd rather we have a better standard across the board, allowing for personnel deploying to get into some more advanced shooting during TMST instead of having to start at square one.

Assuming for a moment that we had 5,000 rounds per soldier, what would the program look like?

Cheers,

2B

As an aside, CAS has a tendency to end TICs around here.  25mm and 7.62mm are also quite important.

 

[Kirkhill]

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you get what you need. 

As long as you can paint it black?

 

[starlight_cdn]

Infidel, what's the going rate for 1000 rounds of 5.56mm Ball when bought in contractor quantities?

I'm buying 1600 rd cases of the cheap Chinese non-corrosive 5.56mm (55 gr) for around $400 CDN. Not great for KD...good for running CQB drills. $0.25 CDN a round.

Good name brand 5.56 (62 gr) for around $300 CDN for 1000 rounds. $0.30 CDN a round. These are standard case prices in Canada.

I go through a lot of 5.56mm and 9mm every year. Got a new supplier prices may drop.