An ultimatum of sorts "Come... or we Go"

[CrazyCanuck]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6356585.stm

A Canadian Senate committee says the government should consider withdrawing from Afghanistan unless its Nato allies provide additional troops there.

The Canadian contingent has been involved in some of the heaviest fighting in the volatile south, with 42 troops losing their lives.

Canada has 2,500 troops in Afghanistan and forms the core of Nato operations in the province of Kandahar.

Kandahar has seen some of the heaviest clashes with the Taleban recently.

Only the US and the UK have more troops contributing to the Nato mission in Afghanistan.

'Serious struggle'

It is the fact that more than 40 soldiers have been killed in combat that is testing Canada's minority Conservative government's resolve over this mission.

Map of Afghanistan

Now a Senate committee has suggested that Canada withdraw its troops within 12 months unless there are substantial Nato reinforcements.

Senator Colin Kenny says it is time for Canada's Nato allies to step up and stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Canada.

"We think this is an uphill fight. We see it as a serious struggle that we're in and that we're in it for a very long time," Mr Kenny said.

He added that anyone expecting to see the quick emergence of a modern democracy in Afghanistan was "dreaming in Technicolor".

The growing frustration comes as other Nato members, including France, Germany and Italy, limit their operations, keeping them in relatively safe regions of northern Afghanistan, instead of making them available to engage the Taleban insurgents in the south.




It seems to me like an excuse to get out, though maybe it is time we started using a stick with these countries.

 

[aesop081]

though maybe it is time we started using a stick with these countries.

After all the years where we free-loaded off our allies, i'm sure its not getting us any sympathy.

 

[armyvern]

After all the years where we free-loaded off our allies, i'm sure its not getting us any sympathy.

Bingo.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

After all the years where we free-loaded off our allies, i'm sure its not getting us any sympathy.

Not to be the SOB here...but can you elaborate some?

Just looking for what direction you are taking with this...not saying I agree/disagree...just your POV thats all.

 

[aesop081]

Not to be the SOB here...but can you elaborate some?

Just looking for what direction you are taking with this...not saying I agree/disagree...just your POV thats all.

Our withdrawl from continental Europe, our very small participation in GW 1, steady decline of our defence budget, lack of participation for years in major NATO training.......Our continued dependance on Foreign forces for some military functions........stuff like that. I'm not saying i'm right, but thats IMHO

 

[Kat Stevens]

Our withdrawl from continental Europe, our very small participation in GW 1, steady decline of our defence budget, lack of participation for years in major NATO training.......Our continued dependance on Foreign forces for some military functions........stuff like that. I'm not saying i'm right, but thats IMHO

...And mine.

 

[CrazyCanuck]

Our withdrawl from continental Europe, our very small participation in GW 1, steady decline of our defence budget, lack of participation for years in major NATO training.......Our continued dependance on Foreign forces for some military functions........stuff like that. I'm not saying i'm right, but thats IMHO

I'm a bit confused, are you saying they aren't helping us because we have decreased the size of our military?

And I don't see how are withdrawal from Europe could have done harm to our image because there was no longer a reason for us to be there, our withdrawal was completely logical and understandable, simply put We weren't needed

 

[armyvern]

No he's saying we're the pot calling the kettle black. Our decades of neglect of the CF and failure to "put out" for NATO is what we are experiencing from other countries today.

Seems we have short collective memories of all that though.

 

[aesop081]

I'm a bit confused, are you saying they aren't helping us because we have decreased the size of our military?

And I don't see how are withdrawal from Europe could have done harm to our image because there was no longer a reason for us to be there, our withdrawal was completely logical and understandable, simply put We weren't needed

Like i said, its my opinion.  But we left the continent as fast as we possibly could.  But it went on during the cold war too.  If you look, our NATO contribution went down in size all throughout the cold war not just after ( the size of our forces before the move south as an exaple in germany). Our lack of presence in Europe, IMHO, signified alot to our allies.  We payed lip service to collective defence and reduced our forces to ridiculous levels.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Our withdrawl from continental Europe, our very small participation in GW 1, steady decline of our defence budget, lack of participation for years in major NATO training.......Our continued dependance on Foreign forces for some military functions........stuff like that. I'm not saying i'm right, but thats IMHO

Again...NOT disagreeing.  Perhaps...as you said the w/drawl from Germany (an entire Bde...and the $$ that is brings), defense $$ that are not only reduced, but poorly spent, token commitments to NATO trng overall.  Agreed.  I am not sure about commenting on the last one...as I would be out of my lane so far that a Leopard couldn't pull me out of the ditch...but...

Are we now doing the business in KAF and such because of a lack of commitment before on our part or a lack of commitment now on their part?

Or are we the ones that said "yes, we will go to "location X and do the job" because it was the right thing to do...and now are looking to others to come and help with that task.

?

Mod edit : there was a double post MRM...just removed it

 

[aesop081]

Mud, i agree our allies should come and help, all i am saying is their lack of enthusiasm  towards our request shouldnt come as a surprise. i don't think we should leave if they dont come to our aid.  just saying that we didnt stick our neck and resources out for NATO for so long, i'm not surpised they wont stick theirs out for us.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I think the point here is that it's pretty damn hypocritical of Canada to hand out ultimatums about stepping up, when this is the first time we've done it in 50 odd years.

 

[CrazyCanuck]

Ok, that cleared it up.

So this is what it looks like to me then: We didn't pull our weight, they did. We are now pulling our weight, they aren't. Now if things continue this way this could make for a very frustrating cycle in the future. But at the current point in time the ball to end that cycle is not in our court, maybe someday it will be again, but i sincerely hope that will never be the case. But of course I know better.

 

[proudnurse]

Too bad the world could not pull together and fight this war on terror as a whole. Leave the rest behind, and just focus on what is important.

Rebecca

 

[McG]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49908/post-527388.html#msg527388

Throwing our teddy into the corner & shouting "come play or I'm going home" is not going to win us points anywhere.  If we were to make such a threat & carry through with it, then we would become just as much a part of the problem.  

We know there is a job to be done.  It has to be done.  If nobody else comes to help shoulder the burden, the job still has to be done.

 

[aesop081]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49908/post-527388.html#msg527388

Throwing our teddy into the corner & shouting "come play or I'm going home" is not going to win us points anywhere.  If we were to make such a threat & carry through with it, then we would become just as much a part of the problem.  

We know there is a job to be done.  It has to be done.  If nobody else comes to help shoulder the burden, the job still has to be done.

agree 100%......

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Too bad the world could not pull together and fight this war on terror as a whole. Leave the rest behind, and just focus on what is important.

Rebecca

Well, I think 'we' are pulling together, rather, have been, but I am not sure that the 'Global Community' knows who 'we' are.  I am thinking of things from the GW and GW2, names like the "Coalition of the Willing" and such, which we might not have waved a big flag in/during.

 

[career_radio-checker]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49908/post-527388.html#msg527388

Throwing our teddy into the corner & shouting "come play or I'm going home" is not going to win us points anywhere.  If we were to make such a threat & carry through with it, then we would become just as much a part of the problem.  

We know there is a job to be done.  It has to be done.  If nobody else comes to help shoulder the burden, the job still has to be done.

I agree with you there but you and I both have the military mentality. The 'take the initiative' mentality has been drilled into us since basic, we can't understand why someone would just leave an unfinished job. But this is a political issue; and all politics have some form of self-interest, whether it be personnel or at a state level. We are not as in tune with European politics as we are with our own, and a NATO European government may stand to loose a lot if they start suffering casualties (just as in any democratic government). In short, try to look at the issue from a bureaucratic point of view.

 

[Reccesoldier]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49908/post-527388.html#msg527388

Throwing our teddy into the corner & shouting "come play or I'm going home" is not going to win us points anywhere.  If we were to make such a threat & carry through with it, then we would become just as much a part of the problem. 

We know there is a job to be done.  It has to be done.  If nobody else comes to help shoulder the burden, the job still has to be done.

Right, "never pass a fault" and all that, I agree 200% but...

Every international announcement made by a government is actually a national announcement.  The powers that be in Europe know that the vast majority of their people see Afghanistan not as a war on terror but as an extension of George W Bush's personal war of convenience.  Their public has not and probably will not move to convince them that their current policy is wrong.  EU politicians could care less about Canada's rantings and threats, it is their jobs that they care about and Canadians don't vote in Belgium Germany or France.  Most Europeans are also of the opinion that NATO's time has come and gone and since the political and economic ascendancy of the EU they are probably more interested in an EU version than something which could tie them to the actions and policies of the EEEEEEEVIL USA®.

 

[Kirkhill]

I'm a bit confused, are you saying they aren't helping us because we have decreased the size of our military?

And I don't see how are withdrawal from Europe could have done harm to our image because there was no longer a reason for us to be there, our withdrawal was completely logical and understandable, simply put We weren't needed

I think there may be a matter of timing in that reference - We withdrew from Europe three times.  Most recently it was after the German garrison was retasked to the Balkans for 10 years.  Prior to that it was when the Mulroney government gave up on the CAST commitment to Norway in the name of supplying a Division for Germany (although that was something of a zero-sum exercise).  Prior to that one was Trudeau's downsizing of the NATO commitments in the 70's.  Neither Trudeau's nor Mulroney's moves could be considered as being surplus to requirement during the height of the Cold War.