An ultimatum of sorts "Come... or we Go"

[CrazyCanuck]

I had been specifically referring to the withdrawal after the cold war, but I see what you mean.

I wonder if this fixes the problem? http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/02/14/afghanistan.troops/index.html

From Mike Mount
CNN


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Expecting the resurgent Taliban to stage a spring offensive, the U.S. military is moving a brigade of troops into Afghanistan, instead of Iraq, Pentagon officials said Wednesday.

About 3,200 soldiers from the 173rd Airborne Brigade base in Vicenza, Italy, will go this spring to the porous eastern Afghan border with Pakistan. The soldiers will replace the already extended 3rd Brigade of the 10th Mountain Division.

The 173rd already was training to deploy to Iraq, Pentagon officials said.

Moving the 173rd into Afghanistan will have no effect on the forces scheduled to deploy to Baghdad because commanders will identify other troops to replace the brigade, the officials said.

The new troops will keep the level of U.S. forces in Afghanistan at about 27,000, the highest number of U.S. troops there since the October 2001 invasion.

The decision to move the troops came last month when Defense Secretary Robert Gates visited the then-commander in Afghanistan, Lt. Gen. Karl Eikenberry.

The general told Gates he needed the additional soldiers to deal with rising violence in the country and to combat an expected Taliban assault in the spring.

Eikenberry extended the 3rd Brigade's tour by 120 days, until another unit could be identified to replace them.

There is no official date set for moving the brigade into Afghanistan, and there has been no word on what units will replace the 173rd in Iraq.

About 50,000 U.S. and NATO troops are currently inside Afghanistan.




That's a few thousand extra troops, does this mean the ultimatum is over the day after it was suggested? Do the Americans count?

 

[gaspasser]

It seems to me that the senators are just grandstanding to make a name for themselves and help the NDP's arguments of our troops coming home in coffins.  Let us not let their deaths go in vain, they believed in the mission and sacrificed for it.  Memories of WW1 again. Vimy Ridge where Canada became CANADA! 
Let's not sit in the corner and sulk because no one else wants to play.  We started the fight, we better damn well finish it.  We are doing what we've always done, standing up for the little guy who can't fight.  Pushing back the veil of evil and lighting up the curtain of peace, prosperity, and democratic rule of law.
We've been too many years (the military) of taking a kicking in the pants from lack of money, doing more with less, cross training, becoming super troopers and tradespeople...well, here we are at the end game and coming up a dollar short and a day late.  Shame on previous governments for letting the Canadian Armed Forces dwindle to less than 85,000 ALL TOGETHER! 
Come on Canada, let's fight again!

 

[CrazyCanuck]

+1 though the cross training part is probably an advantage

 

[eerickso]

Why is it that Poland seems to one of the few refuges of common sense left in Europe?  Atleast some European countries are still grateful!

 

[gaspasser]

+1 though the cross training part is probably an advantage

Yes, but if you lose one person, there goes the "jobs" that person was trained for.  It's the old reliable adage, "80% of the work done by 20% of the people".
;D

 

[The Bread Guy]

As I'm reading this debate, I'm asking myself:

Now that we are doing some heavy lifting in a nasty place, how long will it take for Canada to gain the "pulling our weight" dividend?  Years?  Decades?  Well beyond any electoral mandate in a democracy?

Hate to sound selfish, but a number of people out there are saying that for others to "listen" to Canada, we should be doing our part.  Just "trolling" to see what people might think is the timeframe involved.

 

[Kirkhill]

I think you have to just keep doing it.  If you start thinking in terms of dividends, or worse still, talking in those terms, people will remember the past.  How many times have the Yanks on this site been reminded they were late to the party in 1941 and 1917 or that they lost the war of 1812?  ;D

Other than that it is a constant case of just doing - and if you stop doing then people will notice and accuse you of not anteing up.  Even if you just took a day off.

 

[Reccesoldier]

Why is it that Poland seems to one of the few refuges of common sense left in Europe?  Atleast some European countries are still grateful!

That's what happens when your country has been treated like some other country's beeotch for a good portion of its history. 

 

[Edward Campbell]

One of our (few) good politicians, John Manley (Liberal), used the analogy of the fellow who enjoys the meal and drinks but, when the bill comes, rushes off to the washroom.  That fellow, he said, was Canada in the world.

We all know that fellow; we still tolerate him because he is an old chum and he did some good, important things a few years ago, and he still pitches is, a wee bit, and, mostly, he cheers from the sidelines, and ...

We all know how that reuptation sticks.  Even if he comes in one day and treats us all he'll still be known as a cheapskate; even after he starts paying his share he'll still be known as a skinflint.  A poor reputation is easy to earn and very, very hard to change.

Kirkhill is right; we just have to keep at it - doing a full, fair share.  Gradually, imperceptably, at first, our bad 'rep' will be forgotten, we will gain the trust and then the respect and then the allegiance of other states.

 

[observor 69]

I am a bit late joining this discussion but.....if I follow it correctly the heads of the governments of the European NATO countries are dragging their feet in contributing forces because of Canada's poor past military contributions, sort of a tit for tat.  So Angela Merkel and Dominique de Villepin get up in the morning and say we're not sending any of our military to Afghan because of those Canadians? IMHO European governments aren't contributing troops and treasure because of narrow political calculations. Most European voter regard Afghanistan as a part of the Bush "War on terror." I also note that Germany has let it's military might slip dramatically since the end of the Cold War. It has economic challenges at home after reuniting with East Germany. Bush did nothing to improve the international respect for his government in the manner in which he handled the  invasion of Iraq and ridiculing of the European nations.

After thought addition:
While the above is my thoughts on why NATO countries are reluctant to contribute to the ISAF mission, I want to add that I lived through the past governments starving of our military and agree with Edward's "One of our (few) good politicians, John Manley (Liberal), used the analogy of the fellow who enjoys the meal and drinks but, when the bill comes, rushes off to the washroom.  That fellow, he said, was Canada in the world."

 

[aesop081]

I am a bit late joining this discussion but.....if I follow it correctly the heads of the governments of the European NATO countries are dragging their feet in contributing forces because of Canada's poor past military contributions, sort of a tit for tat.  So Angela Merkel and Dominique de Villepin get up in the morning and say we're not sending any of our military to Afghan because of those Canadians? IMHO European governments aren't contributing troops and treasure because of narrow political calculations. Most European voter regard Afghanistan as a part of the Bush "War on terror." I also note that Germany has let it's military might slip dramatically since the end of the Cold War. It has economic challenges at home after reuniting with East Germany. Bush did nothing to improve the international respect for his government in the manner in which he handled the  invasion of Iraq and ridiculing of the European nations.

After thought addition:
While the above is my thoughts on why NATO countries are reluctant to contribute to the ISAF mission, I want to add that I lived through the past governments starving of our military and agree with Edward's "One of our (few) good politicians, John Manley (Liberal), used the analogy of the fellow who enjoys the meal and drinks but, when the bill comes, rushes off to the washroom.  That fellow, he said, was Canada in the world."

I never once said that the specific reason that the European NATO allies arent responsive to our request is our previous lack of paticipation. I mearly pointed out that our track record is surely not winning us any sympathy.

 

[time expired]

Basically most European countries are not participating because of a deep seated fear of the Islamic
terrorist, the lesson of Spain is not lost on them,fight terrorists and you get bombed, back away and
you will be OK. Basically moral cowardice.I live in Germany and I constantly hear the comments about
this from ordinary people.The politicians realize this and use other reasons that sound more acceptable
but the truth remains they are quacking in their boots.Add to this an in credable level of anti Americanism
and anti sometime that one sees here in Europe, of course it is always rationalised,we dont hate the
American(Israelis) it just Reagan,Bush or(Begin,Sharon)etc.etc. Poland and some other ex Warsaw
Pact countries have a somewhat different take on things they still have issues with Mother Russia and
know if trouble breaks out there is no point in looking to France or Germany for help the only country
that will come to their aid is the good old USA.
      Given all that I saw on German TV a retired Gen. voice the opinion that Germany owes it to the other
NATO members to step up to the plate,defiantly a minority view but the first time I have heard it
expressed.
                    Regards             

 

[time expired]

Spelling check changed the text, should read:- Anti Amricanism and Anti Sematism.
                                                Sorry

 

[eerickso]

I don't think for one minute the current government would pack up and leave. However, I am glad to see we are getting on Europe's case. We definately need to keep the heat on!

You can measure our contributions in terms of equipment, money, and amount of people. However, the fact is Canada is making a large contibution in terms of one important category. We have every right to ask for help!

 

[aesop081]

We have every right to ask for help!

And unfortunately they have every right to tell us to go pound salt.......right or wrong.

 

[time expired]

CDN Aviator
              I have to dissagree,they do not have that right .This is a NATO sponsored operation agreed
to by a majority of member states.This agreement was made at a time when the US. had already
done most of the dirty work and the rest looked easy, it was only when it got messy that some of
our European allies decided they would rather not, thank you .I suggest they stand up and be counted
or risk having NATO go the way of the UN.In the eyes of the US, it may be already too late IMHO
                                  Regards