Analysis: 15 Mar 2019: Christchurch NZ Mosque Shootings

[brihard]

I'm all about group punishment when required. Al Qaeda? Burn them all. Boko Haram? Crucify them upside down with their heads in a bucket of liquid crap. Daesh? Remove all trace of them from history.

The devil is very much in the details at that point. What's our limit for that when we have an organization that has controlled territory and has essentially employed bureaucrats in its administration? How about non-combatants; the logisticians, the medical staff, the information ops people? Where is the line drawn between those who actively fought, thsoe who were knowing enablers, and those who found themselves on a bad part of a map and kept living their lives just under a new occupier for whom their labour definitely gave some advantage?

The battlefield side of this stuff is easier... But once a group collapses and everyone's fleeing, figuring out who did what and what to do with them gets murkier.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>I'm all about group punishment when required.

There's a framework in place for setting out how conflicts are fought, and how war and humanitarian crimes are dealt with (irrespective of the roles of those involved) during and after conflict.  One beneficial feature is that it doesn't require the warfighting forces to be a deeply involved part of the judicial proceedings or the punishment/remediation.

"Group punishment", for better or worse, is a term of art that carries with it the idea that a group is punished for the actions of any of its members (eg. the platoon does pushups because one of the recruits forgot to brush his teeth).  It is an illiberal practice.  We should try and punish people for what each of them does or neglects to do.  So when we set out to hold "a group" responsible for the sum of its conduct, we should still discriminate on the basis of who did what.

 

[Furniture]

"I'm all about group punishment when required." I thought I made that part pretty clear.

If it's specific to the individual it's not group punishment... so unless you're advocating punishing an entire group the same regardless of the actions of the individual you're not talking group punishment.

Sorry I wasn't more clear the first time.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The devil is very much in the details at that point. What's our limit for that when we have an organization that has controlled territory and has essentially employed bureaucrats in its administration? How about non-combatants; the logisticians, the medical staff, the information ops people? Where is the line drawn between those who actively fought, thsoe who were knowing enablers, and those who found themselves on a bad part of a map and kept living their lives just under a new occupier for whom their labour definitely gave some advantage?

The battlefield side of this stuff is easier... But once a group collapses and everyone's fleeing, figuring out who did what and what to do with them gets murkier.

Dump them at the KSA border, they are:

1. Fellow Muslims
2. The direct result of the radicalization of the Sunni Muslim world by the KSA.
3. Logistically easy

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Thoughts on the shooter's motivations and ramblings

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/radicalization-degeneration-brenton-tarrant-white-supremacist/

 

[AbdullahD]

Thoughts on the shooter's motivations and ramblings

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/radicalization-degeneration-brenton-tarrant-white-supremacist/

That was a very enlightening read.

Kind of amazing how far we played into his hands.

Stole it and shared it to my Facebook etc.. very good read.

Thanks
Abdullah

 

[daftandbarmy]

One does not need to be white to be anti-muslim or a Nationalist   

Good point - amongst other Islamic internecine conflicts, Iraq and Iran killed about a million of each other over 10 years, back in the 80s.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Hundreds of Christians killed, or forced into slavery, on a running basis and nobody says anything.

https://www.spencerfernando.com/2019/03/19/establishment-elites-silent-on-recent-massacres-of-christians-in-africa/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=ytdMUddGe-U

 

[Remius]

Hundreds of Christians killed, or forced into slavery, on a running basis and nobody says anything.

https://www.spencerfernando.com/2019/03/19/establishment-elites-silent-on-recent-massacres-of-christians-in-africa/

To be fair, they don't say much about anyone dying in Africa, Christian or otherwise.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

To be fair, they don't say much about anyone dying in Africa, Christian or otherwise.

Well, I guess if nobody talks about it, that makes it OK then? We are only supposed to be upset if the agenda press says so? Is that where you're going with it? :dunno:

 

[AbdullahD]

Well, I guess if nobody talks about it, that makes it OK then? We are only supposed to be upset if the agenda press says so? Is that where you're going with it? :dunno:

I think we do care but it is a few levels removed. From what I understand, NZ is first world, nice and tourist destination etc.

Whereas Africa is third world, not many people from what I understand want to go there etc.

I'm sure someone can explain better, but we care more when they are "like" us. I see the point of Christian's dying brought up here, my Muslim buddies are talking about Israel bombing Palestine and no one is talking about either.

Kinda sad on both counts. Life is life, but apparently some life is more important then others in certain situations.

Abdullah

 

[Remius]

Well, I guess if nobody talks about it, that makes it OK then? We are only supposed to be upset if the agenda press says so? Is that where you're going with it? :dunno:

No.  If a shooter had gone in to kill 40-50 Christians in Christchurch it would have still made headlines around the world.  Same as if it happened in Canada, Australia or insert any western country.

If 40-50 muslims were killed in Sudan it would get the same coverage as 40-50 Christians.

It isn't that the press or elites are ignoring Christians killings in Africa. It is largely just plain ignoring Africa.

Fernando was trying to make a point but that point is sort of off base a bit.

 

[Remius]

I think we do care but it is a few levels removed. From what I understand, NZ is first world, nice and tourist destination etc.

Whereas Africa is third world, not many people from what I understand want to go there etc.

I'm sure someone can explain better, but we care more when they are "like" us. I see the point of Christian's dying brought up here, my Muslim buddies are talking about Israel bombing Palestine and no one is talking about either.

Kinda sad on both counts. Life is life, but apparently some life is more important then others in certain situations.

Abdullah

It is exactly due to how far removed you are and how you can relate.  Canada and New Zealand are western countries with similar governments, history etc.  it has to do with how you relate, not so much with how one values life.

A bus full of kids die on their way to a hockey game gets attention here.  Because we can relate.  It could be us or our kids.  A bus full of kids die going to work in an Indian slum factory is tragic and likely a normal thing there but we can't relate so it does not get our attention.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Hundreds of Christians killed, or forced into slavery, on a running basis and nobody says anything.

https://www.spencerfernando.com/2019/03/19/establishment-elites-silent-on-recent-massacres-of-christians-in-africa/

Tales such as this, especially from Nigeria, always makes me think "what else is new".  However, like most stories, it's not so cut and dried as the linked article opinion would have us believe.  And, just to piss off the usual suspects, it is probably more linked to climate change than to religion.

Let's first go to Snopes

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nigeria-christians-muslims/

Did ‘Muslim Militants’ Kill 120 Christians in Nigeria in February/March 2019?

Claim

Muslim militants killed 120 Christians in Nigeria during a three-week period in February and March 2019.

What's True

Although not entirely reliable, various local news reports corroborated the incidents and deaths described in reports by Breitbart and the Christian Post website.

What's False

Religious affiliation is a secondary issue in the ongoing Nigerian herder-farmer conflict, which impartial experts consistently describe as being primarily a dispute over natural resources and land usage. Reports in the U.S. in March 2019 failed to properly explain the complexity of the conflict, and Breitbart's article did not mention a major reported atrocity perpetrated against the mostly Muslim Fula people in February 2019.


Origin

In the aftermath of the March 2019 Christchurch, New Zealand, massacre in which a white supremacist gunman fatally shot 50 people at two mosques, some right-leaning observers quickly turned their attention to atrocities allegedly perpetrated by Muslims against Christians in recent weeks.

. . .

Conclusion

The ongoing herder-farmer conflict in Nigeria has claimed thousands of lives in recent years, particularly during an escalation of the violence in 2019 and especially in Kaduna State, where dozens of mostly Christian Adara were reported to have been killed in February and March by mostly Muslim Fulani militants.

Local news reports, as recorded in the Council on Foreign Relations’ Nigeria Security Tracker, largely corroborate the incidents and deaths described by Breitbart and the Christian Solidarity Worldwide non-profit group.

However, reports by Breitbart and the Christian Post website failed readers by presenting a woefully narrow viewpoint on the conflict, emphasizing only the religious affiliations of the participants while neglecting to mention what impartial experts have highlighted as being the primary driving force behind it: a dispute over natural resources and land usage.

Furthermore, while Breitbart’s article provided details of several reported attacks by Fulani herders on farmers in Kaduna State in February and March 2019, it did not mention the attack on the mainly Muslim Fula ethnic group, which was the single largest reported atrocity during the time period in question.

Notwithstanding the fact that some local Christian leaders disputed the death toll presented in that case, Breitbart’s failure to even mention the attack on the Fula group constitutes a glaring omission in any article purporting to be a reliable or impartial examination of what is, to begin with, a volatile and complicated conflict.

And this herder-farmer dispute is not new.  From the BBC in 2016 "Making sense of Nigeria's Fulani-farmer conflict"

. . .

But the issue is not new - clashes between different groups of Fulani herders and farmers have killed thousands of people in Nigeria over the past two decades.  . . .

What is the fighting about?

Disagreements over the use of essential resources such as farmland, grazing areas and water between herders and local farmers are said to be the major source of the fighting.

Fulani herders can travel hundreds of miles in large numbers with their cattle in search of pasture. They are often armed with weapons to protect their livestock.

They frequently clash with farmers who consistently accuse them of damaging their crops and failing to control their animals.
The Fulanis respond that they are being attacked by gangs from farming communities who try to steal their cattle and they are just defending themselves.

The clashes used to be confined to Nigeria's central region, with the mainly Christian Berom farming community in Plateau state engaging in tit-for-tat killings with Muslim nomadic herders.

But the continued effect of climate change on grazing lands has pushed the Fulani herdsmen further forward south in search of grass and water.

This has widened the scope of the conflict with deadly incidents being increasingly reported in southern parts of the country, raising fears that the violence could threaten the fragile unity that exists among Nigeria's diverse ethnic groups.


Why is the conflict so vicious and complicated?

Apart from clashes with farmers, there have been allegations that some Fulanis have been involved in armed robbery, rape and communal violence especially in central and northern part of the country. Similar accusations have also been made against them in Ghana and Ivory Coast.

Their association with the Hausa ethnic group and their nomadic nature has also made them vulnerable to attack, and they have been caught up in ethnic clashes not of their making.

Much of the violence in central Nigeria dates back to the 2002 and 2004 clashes in the Yelwa-Shendam area of Plateau state in which thousands lost their lives.

This saw ethnic, political, economic and religious tensions overlap and the consequences are still seen with deep distrust between mainly Muslim Fulani herders and mostly Christian farming communities, who see the Hausa-Fulanis as outsiders trying to take their land.

The Fulanis are also sometimes attacked and have their animals stolen by bandits, prompting brutal reprisals. This is not unique to central Nigeria but the country as a whole.

Or these pieces from the Christian Science Monitor from 2012 and 2013.
https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2012/0709/Weekend-clashes-kill-200-as-Nigeria-struggles-for-control
https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Latest-News-Wires/2013/0504/Clashes-between-ethnic-groups-leave-at-least-30-dead-in-Nigeria

Trying to understand Africa is a monumental task and trying to make a claim such as that in the Fernando article highlights that the author is either ignorant of the facts or (more likely) is as guilty as "the establishment elites" that he attacks by deliberately ignoring the nuances of the conflict in his goal of advancing his agenda.

There is more than enough blame to go around in Nigeria's long history of regional, tribal, economic, political and religious violence.  There are undoubtedly a few others of a certain age on these means who can remember seeing the horrors of the Nigerian Civil War (aka Biafran War) on nightly TV reports 50 years ago.  At that time the Muslim Northern Hausa-Fulani mostly stayed out of the conflict, while the Southerners (including many Christians) had no problem on embarking on a campaign of eliminating those who opposed them.


(edited to correct a spelling error)

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I think we do care but it is a few levels removed. From what I understand, NZ is first world, nice and tourist destination etc.

Whereas Africa is third world, not many people from what I understand want to go there etc.

I'm sure someone can explain better, but we care more when they are "like" us. I see the point of Christian's dying brought up here, my Muslim buddies are talking about Israel bombing Palestine and no one is talking about either.

Kinda sad on both counts. Life is life, but apparently some life is more important then others in certain situations.



Abdullah

Or all the muslim nations that are rocketing and attacking Israel and targeting civilians. That isn't reported either.

It is exactly due to how far removed you are and how you can relate.  Canada and New Zealand are western countries with similar governments, history etc.  it has to do with how you relate, not so much with how one values life.

A bus full of kids die on their way to a hockey game gets attention here.  Because we can relate.  It could be us or our kids.  A bus full of kids die going to work in an Indian slum factory is tragic and likely a normal thing there but we can't relate so it does not get our attention.

So again, do we just continue to ignore it? Or do we start acknowledging it, showing it and improve it.

I'm finding it increasingly hard to find sympathy for any group, who die needlessly when we ignore what is happening, to other faiths. In some cases, by the very groups we're asked to feel sympathy for.

Christians, as well as others are being murdered and sold into slavery and the, us versus them, will never be settled until we start working with a level playing field. As advances, by all sides should be lauded, equal weight has to be put on the atrocities of any group that murders, rapes, tortures and enslaves all other groups in the world for their own singular dogma. Not exposing them is simply telling lies to ourselves hoping it won't affect us and become someone else's problem. Our heads are in the sand and our asses are pointed skyward for anyone wanting to take advantage of our cowardly isolationist views of world matters and where we are placed in it.

Evil needs to be denounced where ever we find it. The world in no longer a place where it takes two years for a letter to catch up.
Communication is instantaneous. There is no excuse for hiding it, broadcasting it or not commenting on it.

I'm tired of "It's not a problem unless I see it, hear it and most of all, it has to affect me."

I'm not sure, but I'm having trouble remembering when there was so much sympathy, knee jerk government action or controversy and world condemnation, when a christian church in North America is shot up or burned.

There is a definite perceived bias and marginalizing victims of one group, while overwhelmingly supporting another. It is just a disaster waiting to boil over.

Unfortunately, perceived bias and marginalization is increasing, quickly and badly, because of lack of awareness and education and the unwillingness of the biased media in pursuing it. The 'I don't care' attitude doesn't help either

 

[Remius]

Or all the muslim nations that are rocketing and attacking Israel and targeting civilians.

So again, do we just continue to ignore it? Or do we start acknowledging it, showing it and improve it.

I'm finding it increasingly hard to find sympathy for muslims, who die needlessly when we ignore what is happening, to other faiths.

Christians are being murdered and sold into slavery and the, us versus them, will never be settled until we start working with a level playing field. As advances, by all sides should be lauded, equal weight has to be put on the atrocities of any group that murders, rapes, tortures and enslaves all other groups in the world for their own singular dogma. Not exposing them is simply telling lies to ourselves hoping it won't affect us and become someone else's problem. Our heads are in the sand and our asses are pointed skyward for anyone wanting to take advantage of our cowardly isolationist views of world matters and where we are placed in it.

You yourself are a self described Nationalist.  Why would you care what goes on elsewhere in the world?  Donald Trump is also a self described nationalist.  One you have defended on multiple occasions.  One who is essentially an isolationist.

Not a knock your position but I am trying to square that round peg.

As mentioned by Blackadder, some on the right are merely trying to minimise the events in Christchurch with that train of thought. 

"Yes that was bad but what about..."  You can apply that train of thought to anything.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Tales such as this, especially from Nigeria, always makes me think "what else is new".  However, like most stories, it's not so cut and dried as the linked article opinion would have us believe ...

Hard to fit all that nuance into a meme, though 

If a shooter had gone in to kill 40-50 Christians in Christchurch it would have still made headlines around the world.  Same as if it happened in Canada, Australia or insert any western country.

Not even that many would draw the eye.

 

[QV]

Derail>  Hmm, sounds like we've identified the problem: religion.

   

 

[AbdullahD]

Derail>  Hmm, sounds like we've identified the problem: religion.

 

I refer you to an earlier post, that highlights that religion may not be the primary driver.

Or all the muslim nations that are rocketing and attacking Israel and targeting civilians.

I am sorry, how many Islamic and/or Muslim nations are rocketing Israel, I have missed this in the news. I did hear Israel showered Palestine with rockets though and those usual issues exist.

Any rate here is a list of Islam by nation, could you please list the countries with say more the  40% Muslims and whether they are attacking Israel for me or not.

I think 2 maybe 3 will be the top, so the majority of Islamic or Muslim nations are not.

Abdullah

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Derail>  Hmm, sounds like we've identified the problem: religion.

 

No, that mis-identifies the problem.

The problem, at it's root, are humans.

Humans have incredible capacity to create both good and bad in the universe. Good and bad are individual, daily choices. To blame ideology, religions, objects, racial groups or gender (or any other reason) is to miss the point and lets individuals off of the hook for their actions.

Choose not to be evil. Choose not to hurt others. Those things are within everyone's control.