And what's wrong with being a socialist? / from the Sarah Palin Thread

[Teeps74]

As a matter of fact, I brought up the electrician example as I have close friends who are both in the high tech side and the electrcian side and the high tech people I know make between 12-15 an hour, it's still not a whole lot but it's almost double what the apprentices are making.

Working youself out of poverty is not always a choice.  Can it be done, certainly, is welfare an unfortunate necessity, yes.  

I do agree with you about the jail comment.  Prisoners would not have anything beyond a matress and walls....tv's be damned...welcome to punishment.  They have committed a crime though, last I checked the majority of poor hadn't, and shouldn't be punished for being poor.

Yes, apprentices make little money up front. Once they move on to journeyman, there is a jump. A big one. My father is retiring this year, as a journeyman electrician (of 35+ years). He is like that career Cpl, was just happy doing the grunt work, and he was well compensated for it. His average hourly wage offered starts at $25/hr in a town of +/- 150,000 people.

Most civi jobs with growth, your wages start abysmally low... But rapidly bounce up (police in Ont, the OPP for instance start at about $35k/year I beleive (before overtime)... I will ask my sis later). Within these skilled trades however, you do your time as an apprentice, you will rapidly gain rewards (not the least of which, most trades will soon be hit with mass retirements as the boomers start looking at RV'ing and golfing for the rest of their lives).

Prisoners... Very simple. Put them to work. Pay them min wage for their work, and they buy the food they eat in prison, and all the needs they have, while banking the rest for their release. Give them transferable skills, so that when (if) they are released, they are not dependant on welfare to get by. Give them a work ethic, so that they do not need to reoffend (I too worked in social services for a short stint as a security guard... Many ex-cons reoffend just to get back inside, others will abuse the system for a legit pay check while they are dealing, stealing, or beating). This prison workfare, could be a part of the rehabilitation program which should be forced on all prisoners.

For social assistance, limit it. 6 months for those without dependants, and boost the allowance while making it mandatory to participate in voactional training of some sort. For single parents (tyhis one does make my heart bleed) they do need serious help they are not currently getting because (from what little I saw) the vast majority of those on welfare are abusing the system, and have been doing so for years, if not decades and across generations.

Our health care and education should be more socialised then it is... The rest of our system should remain as is. Capitolism rewards the creative and hard workers, and gives motivation to those lacking. There will always be those that are happy just getting by, and those who will want to one up the Jones's, our system, by in large, supports this (some tweeking required).

 

[Adamant]

Teeps74, I agree with just about everything you said, minus the 6 month bit. 

And I know wages go up over time and with your journeymans, I was just making the point that living at or below the poverty line does not a lazy person make.  There are innumerable reasons why someone may be in that situation and may be a very hard worker. 

I think there should be a limit on Welfare, however, it should be at 5 year limit  This allows people time to finish a degree programme or trade, this of course being for single parents.  Single people, barring any sort of disability do not need 5 years of social assistance, however, 6 months may be insufficient, depending on circumstances, which contrary to what I've seen here can be a lot more  than simply being a "lazy rower".

That all being said I worked 3 jobs (2 full time and one part time) during my university years and have very little sympathy for people who have no work ethic, and yet still can see the value in having a social net that is set up to allow the best possible chances for success for all citizens.

 

[Snafu-Bar]

Everyone in this country is getting a High School Education, with the exceptions of those who drop out and become leeches on society.  A University Education is a privilege that should be earned.  As is now, to many are abusing social and economic programs to get into university and dumbing down our Degree System.  Don't complain that there are no programs to assist students.  There are hundreds of programs and initiatives.  Student Loans.  Bursaries.  Aboriginal Programs.  Corporate Programs.  Government Programs.  The CF is one of the largest contributors towards giving High School students an university education through ROTP.  So don't complain there.

I dropped out to go to work when i was 15, i went back for bits and pieces but decided to just go back to work, i was learning more outside in the workforce than i was behind a desk in book. 20 years passed by and i done alright for myself without any other education whatsoever. I have done many things between my first and last job and tried anything people would give me the chance to do. That being said, many times i have been on the verge of getting that hand up only to have it removed before i could get it. Thus i am now a pushing 40 lowly educated person with hopes of something "better". I also realize that the military offers the chance to better ones self through it's training and educating. Thus it's why i chose to apply versus going back to the private sector. Those who want more out of life are seeking it, it's just not available to everyone. Even the CF has it's standards to seperate those who CAN from those who cannot.


That sounds a little racist, but I would point out that the jobs that many of these immigrants are filling is due to fact that many "Canadians" feel that the jobs are below their dignity.  Funny how a job can be below the dignity of a person with no income.

The same imports are doctors and other such highly skilled people but due to goverment regulations and bunglery thier "papers" are not valid in canada and thus are forced to take whatever they can to support themeselves.  People on welfare CAN and should be doing thier part, and the "system" should be making sure that's being done.

As I pointed out before, as did another, it is great that we are all in the same boat, but those who refuse to row, but demand the same benefits as those who do, are the ones who are bringing down the system.  


Those who refuse are the same people that should be unplugged from the system and left on thier own. Like i already said ALL in ALL ROW or get the fk outta the boat. Everyone plays a part, everyone gets the same treatment and healthcare and education, no participation = no handouts! Everyone already agree's and acknowlenges the fact that our system is flawwed, but it's only flawwed through lack of policing and unwillingness to make participation a requisit for getting help.


Sorry if this message looks like a mess, but it is what it is.

Cheers.

 

[pizzathahut]

Do you not know that Tradespeople are making more that High Tech workers.  A University Degree is a piece of paper.  Some of those people are poor.  Some are professional students, because they don't know what else to do with their lives.  It is the Trades where the money is to be made, unless you poppa is going to hand over a job as CEO of BCE to you.

Agreed. I'm a computer programmer. Ever since 2000 (tech crash) my earnings have actually gone down each year instead of increasing. it is now 2008. 8 years in the field and I'm done. I start my 'common core' program at College on the 23rd to go into the Mining Industry. I've had enough with I.T. and it's reclining pay. For myself, it has gotten to a point where I can make more serving tables than working in an I.T. environment.  A large number of my classmates have already left the I.T. industry for other opportunities.

Topic related feedback:
don't know if this makes a whole lotta sense but... Seems like Conservatives touch of Socialism is fine, Liberal Socialism is wrong... just wrong. It goes too far.

 

[tomahawk6]

Conservatives like myself dont feel we in the US can afford socialism. Already our social security program is insolvent and the democrats want to add universal healthcare to it. Socialism doesnt work but if you like it then go for it. The private sector has ups and downs if you want job security get a government job. The US and I assume Canada as well were founded by hard working independent people.If you work hard you get ahead if you were lazy you didnt eat. Harsh but they didnt believe in free rides. Sadly that philosophy seems to be dying in Canada and is headed that way in the US.

 

[Adamant]

Conservatives like myself dont feel we in the US can afford socialism. Already our social security program is insolvent and the democrats want to add universal healthcare to it. Socialism doesnt work but if you like it then go for it. The private sector has ups and downs if you want job security get a government job. The US and I assume Canada as well were founded by hard working independent people.If you work hard you get ahead if you were lazy you didnt eat. Harsh but they didnt believe in free rides. Sadly that philosophy seems to be dying in Canada and is headed that way in the US.

Having a vested interest in ones citizens is not offering a "free ride" its giving someone the benefit of being better able to contribute to society.  Worrying about going broke from a cold, or not being able to have surgery because your insurance decides that it's no longer going to cover your particular ailment is neglect.

The US is the only wealthy country in the world without universal health care, spends 15% of the GDP on healthcare (highest in the world)  I would love to see how this cannot be afforded.  The government (US) subsidizes GM, Ford and Chrysler because they cry foul when they loose market share due to poor decisions (the very essence of Capitolism) however, when people cannot afford the very primal need of health the response is "get a better job you bum." 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

So let's move on from 'health care' mantra. Why should I (we) pay for prisoners to get diplomas, third generation welfare families, and government supported needle exchanges\ safe shooting galleries?

 

[Snafu-Bar]

So let's move on from 'health care' mantra. Why should I (we) pay for prisoners to get diplomas, third generation welfare families, and government supported needle exchanges\ safe shooting galleries?

It's been stated that the system needs fixing and tweaking.

The penal system was Agnes Macphails undoing. Although they should be doing restitution rather than sitting in thier cells. Some deserve to be removed from the gene pool altogether and save the trouble of wasting time, effort, oxygen and so on.

Squatters either participate in getting off thier duffs or get dumped from the system to go it without support from the system, ala goto classes or participate in a back to work program or starve.

As for the addicted folks there are programs available to help them already, but they too like many things needs a little tweaking.

Cheers.

 

[Adamant]

So let's move on from 'health care' mantra. Why should I (we) pay for prisoners to get diplomas, third generation welfare families, and government supported needle exchanges\ safe shooting galleries?

I've said I'm with you on that side, I don't think my tax dollars should go to needles for drug-users or Xbox's for prisoners.  It's health care and social protective nets I worry about.  Time limits on welfare is not irresponsible, it's good financial planning.  One must, however, ensure that in placing a time limit on these benefits (welfare) that it does not remove the safety net aspect of it.

I am not entirely opposed to prisoners getting diplomas, however, I think this should be in the form of student aid (loans, grants) the same as anyother citizen would receive. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Prisoners... Very simple. Put them to work. Pay them min wage for their work, and they buy the food they eat in prison, and all the needs they have, while banking the rest for their release. Give them transferable skills, so that when (if) they are released, they are not dependant on welfare to get by. Give them a work ethic, so that they do not need to reoffend (I too worked in social services for a short stint as a security guard... Many ex-cons reoffend just to get back inside, others will abuse the system for a legit pay check while they are dealing, stealing, or beating). This prison workfare, could be a part of the rehabilitation program which should be forced on all prisoners.

...and lots make so much f%*#ing money dealing drugs, shaking innocent small business owners down, recruiting runaways and beating them into prostitutes that they consider jail just 'part of the program'. They don't want to "rehabilitate" any more than you wish to start geting paid less next year than you do right now.

Criminality comes about from a lack of money is one of the biggest lies in history. It comes about from the gigantic amount of money there is too be made abusing others of our species.

Start killing drug dealers, pimps, and other assorted murderers/thugs and watch the prison problem clear up quite fast....

Now, with that out of the way,...back to the socialist stuff.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I am not entirely opposed to prisoners getting diplomas, however, I think this should be in the form of student aid (loans, grants) the same as anyother citizen would receive. 

I couldn't take my own advice........WHAT??.............nice, give the knob a chance at a diploma while Joe Honest slaves away at two jobs trying to make a better life for his family.

Get real.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Sorry Mr. Wallace I guess that my view of poor is anyone that lives around what is concidered the poverty line. Those are the folks that are usually working seasonal jobs, whether it is in the fisheries or agricultural work for example. Not that I was being disrespectful of you or your ideals. I was enjoying the conversation.

You should go see the trucks and homes of some of the 'poor' farmers and fishermen back home in PEI.  I wish I was as poor as alot of them are!  Sure some of the workers don't live like that but..from my experience, it is mostly because they don't care to and therefore are not motivated to 'make it big', for whatever reason.

 

[Danjanou]

Start killing drug dealers, pimps, and other assorted murderers/thugs and watch the prison problem clear up quite fast....

Careful no lets not put you and I out of work here ;D

As for the system just needs a little tweaking......sorry we're well past tweaking and into condem it, tear it down, and start over but I don't see that happening.

 

[Adamant]

I couldn't take my own advice........WHAT??.............nice, give the knob a chance at a diploma while Joe Honest slaves away at two jobs trying to make a better life for his family.

Get real.

I said by way of loans and grants the same way most other students get their degrees.  Contrary to popular belief not all officers have their degrees paid for, and not all civy-U people have mommy and daddy footing the bill.  I paid for my school with student loans, and did all of my friends.  And I have been paying them off for years and will be for another 10-15.  

I understand you are more face to face with this, but surely SOME of the people in our "corrections" system are one time visitors.  And if allowing access to degree programmes will help some get legit then go for it, then recoup costs after the fact like everyone else.  

PS throw the Pedo's in the yard to fend for themselves...no degree for them....

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I say...let them work and learn the value of honest work and the rewards while they are in the system.  Then if they want, when they get out, if they get out, they can apply for student loans just like everyone else.  THAT would be fair IMO.

No...benefits...from...going...to...prison.  Ever.  Ever.

 

[aesop081]

Homeless poeple have nothing, and get little or no help, no welfare and have no chance to rejoin the rest of us.  

You know, a few years ago when i Lived in NB, there was a protest against the government held by homeless people. They held this protest in oficer square in Fredricton. Made a real mess of it during the tourist season. Looked aweful. They were demanding government funded housing and other such nonsense.

Driving by i decided to go see what the fuss was about.

I walked up to one of the protesters and ask him to fill me in as i wanted to know about the issue.

"Why are you homeless ?"

"I dont have a job"

"McDonalds 2 street away is hiring full-time"

"Thats not enough to pay rent and bills"


At this point i said that sounded fair and then i called over a second protester and asked him the same questions. He had the exact same answers.

So there i stodd and said to both of them :

"here's a thought, why dont 2 or 3 of you get a job there and then live together. A few of you split the rent and....voila....no more being homeless !!!"

I thought i was a genius at this point. I magine that, just driving by and solving the city's homless problem in 5 minutes.

Thats when both of them came up with "No i dont want to work there and i want my own appartment"


The NDP can shove its social programs up its ass........

 

[Adamant]

The reason for "shoving these programmes" up people bungs, is about the abuses.  People abuse everything they can, greed assures that. 

You cannot leave the majority of people that actually use, vice abuse, these social nets, because some (far from a majoirty) take advantage of them and greate 3rd and 4th generation welfare families.  Setting a reasonable time line would greatly limit the potential abuse that could be charged agaist the system.

 

[Redeye]

Conservatives like myself dont feel we in the US can afford socialism. Already our social security program is insolvent and the democrats want to add universal healthcare to it. Socialism doesnt work but if you like it then go for it. The private sector has ups and downs if you want job security get a government job. The US and I assume Canada as well were founded by hard working independent people.If you work hard you get ahead if you were lazy you didnt eat. Harsh but they didnt believe in free rides. Sadly that philosophy seems to be dying in Canada and is headed that way in the US.

In the US, Social Security is bankrupt because it's not set up to be solvent.  We run a solvent pension plan here without it costing all that much - and we spend less per capita on health care than the US does - but everyone has coverage.  I can't even begin to understand how it's possible that the US spends more than us but something like 47,000,000 Americans do not have adequate insurance coverage.  How does that happen?  That's a model of failure.  The social costs of not having such systems in place are surely astounding.  While Canada is far from perfect I think better access to services at least cuts down on social ills like crime and abject poverty of the sort seen in a lot of US cities.  It makes a lot of sense to me to spend some money on that.

 

[Donaill]

The reason for "shoving these programmes" up people bungs, is about the abuses.  People abuse everything they can, greed assures that. 

You cannot leave the majority of people that actually use, vice abuse, these social nets, because some (far from a majoirty) take advantage of them and greate 3rd and 4th generation welfare families.  Setting a reasonable time line would greatly limit the potential abuse that could be charged agaist the system.

Agreed ... Agreed... agreed.

One only needs to look at how much white collar crime occurs to see the abuses of a capitalist system occurs. I am not against people making a profit. I am not against business or rewards for effort. I am also for helping those that need the help. I am for ensuring that there are safe gaurds within our system to ensure that the same events of the 1930's do not occur again. Sure, economies will collapse but there has to be some sort of social net up to catch those honest workers and citizens when it does collapse.   Capitalism has its failings, so does socialism. It is just a matter of what kind of society we want to live in.  Do we want the kind of society we have or shall we go back to a time when society was uncaring?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I say...let them work and learn the value of honest work and the rewards while they are in the system.  Then if they want, when they get out, if they get out, they can apply for student loans just like everyone else.  THAT would be fair IMO.

No...benefits...from...going...to...prison.  Ever.  Ever.

We need a 'Boss' on the overpass with a shotgun, and the rest in orange coveralls and leg irons, in the ditch cutting grass and picking garbage. Ever seen how nice the turnpikes in Georgia look