And what's wrong with being a socialist? / from the Sarah Palin Thread

[Kat Stevens]

We need a 'Boss' on the overpass with a shotgun, and the rest in orange coveralls and leg irons, in the ditch cutting grass and picking garbage. Ever seen how nice the turnpikes in Georgia look

I hear they get all the hard boiled eggs they can eat, too... ;D

 

[Eye In The Sky]

We need a 'Boss' on the overpass with a shotgun, and the rest in orange coveralls and leg irons, in the ditch cutting grass and picking garbage. Ever seen how nice the turnpikes in Georgia look

Thats the difference between "prisoners" and what we do up here...vacationers.  :

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

We need a 'Boss' on the overpass with a shotgun, and the rest in orange coveralls and leg irons, in the ditch cutting grass and picking garbage. Ever seen how nice the turnpikes in Georgia look

..and this is also huge huge money for organized crime. Little drug packets all along the road and it goes from ground to ass in about .5 seconds.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

..and this is also huge huge money for organized crime. Little drug packets all along the road and it goes from ground to ass in about .5 seconds.

Thought you liked to do cavity searches ;D You'd be in heaven at the end of every workday :blotto:

 

[Kirkhill]

Sweden - 1996

WORLD NEWS BRIEFS;A Fiscal Conservative Is Elected to Lead Sweden

Published: March 22, 1996
The Parliament today elected as Prime Minister a tough-minded technocrat who has pledged to rein in Sweden's indebted welfare system.

The new Prime Minister, Goeran Persson, takes charge of a nation struggling to balance cradle-to-grave welfare benefits against mountainous public debt and high unemployment.

.... Parliament also replaced Ingvar Carlsson, who retired after 10 years at the party helm, ending an era of Swedish politics dominated by men who rose in an age of expanding welfare benefits.

In the last decade, state debt has soared as Sweden's once-powerful economy has weakened. The Social Democrats have faced divisions and defections, and their leaders charted a more conservative course in the last three years. Mr. Persson is expected to continue that trend.

  NYTimes

Sweden - 2006

[quote  ]The man poised to become Sweden's next prime minister - Fredrik Reinfeldt - has pulled off a dramatic victory, ending a long tradition of Social Democrat rule.
The margin was narrow, but Mr Reinfeldt, 41, can now build a centre-right government spearheaded by his Moderate Party. .....

.....For the first time the Moderates campaigned on a joint platform with centre-right allies - the Christian Democrats, the Liberals and the Centre Party.

New coalition

Mr Reinfeldt's Alliance for Sweden overcame a history of bickering to present a powerful alternative to the Social Democrats.

He has proposed reforms to Sweden's welfare state, including cutting taxes for the lowest earners and reducing unemployment benefits, to encourage the jobless to return to work.

"The Nordic welfare model is in many aspects a good model but it needs more of a choice for individuals," he told Reuters news agency.

"We have a strong economy but we don't have the job creation we need. We want more job creation." .....
[/quote]  BBC Profile

Denmark - 2007

Danish centre-right wins election 

Mr Rasmussen called the election as his poll ratings were high
Denmark's centre-right government of Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen has won a snap election, securing a third consecutive term in office. 

  BBC

Netherlands - 2003

Dutch Appear to Re-elect Conservative Leader in Mixed Outcome
Published: January 23, 2003


After a soul-searching electoral campaign, Dutch voters appeared tonight to have returned the incumbent conservative prime minister to office, while at the same time backing a resurgence of the left-of-center Labor Party.

With 98 percent of the votes counted, and an uncommonly high voter turnout of 80 percent, the Christian Democratic Party of Jan Peter Balkenende emerged the winner, with 44 of the 150 seats in Parliament. Close behind at 42 was Labor, which suffered a drubbing in general elections last May.

The big loser was the Pim Fortuyn List, the new populist group that did well in May, in voting that occurred just after the assassination of Mr. Fortuyn, its leader. Results showed it with 8 seats, down from 26. ...

  NYTimes

And I am afraid I have to resort to Wikipedia for the final word on the Netherlands as de Stemming produces some delightfully assorted parliaments where everybody gets to claim success - but it seems fair to say that there is no great swing away from Conservatism in that one time Socialist country...

...There are a total of 150 seats (zetels) in the second chamber of the Dutch parliament (Tweede Kamer). The elections proved relatively successful for the governing Christian Democratic Appeal (CDA) which remained the largest party with 41 seats, a loss of only three seats. The largest increase in seats was for the Socialist Party (SP), which went from nine to 25 seats. The main opposition party, the social-democratic Labour Party (PvdA) lost nine of its 42 seats, while the right-liberal People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD) and the progressive liberal Democrats 66 lost a considerable portion of their seats, six of 28 and three of six, respectively. New parties, such as the right-wing Party for Freedom (PVV) of former VVD MP Geert Wilders and the animal rights party Party for the Animals (PvdD) were also successful, with the PVV winning nine seats and the PvdD winning two, thereby becoming the first animal rights group to enter a European parliament.[1]

The formation talks led to the installation of the Christian-social fourth cabinet Balkenende, composed of CDA, PvdA and ChristianUnion on February 22, 2007.....

Wikipedia

And why do I list these election results?

Somebody made claim that the best countries in the world are socialist.

It is safe to say that these countries top the Internationalists list of countries to emulate (interestingly they are among the most committed Nationalists anywhere).  Also, while having a strong history of socialism with a human face, or socialism that works ..... it is also interesting to note that socialism resulted in people electing conservative governments.  In large part that was due to increasing public debt, decreasing access to publicly supplied services, decreasing opportunities to get ahead (punitive taxes meant that any overtime earned was confiscated in taxes) and, generally, a stultifying environment.  Immigration policies didn't help either.

The best countries in the world are socialist? Once upon a time........and other fairy tales.

 

[Donaill]

Good posts now I am encouraged to seek out and random facts abound none socialist countries  thats would show a failure of a purely capitalist system.  > > >  Anyone seen that bucket of gas for the fire?  >

The old Soviet Union went from being a purely Communist country to being a purely Captitalist country.  Now there is major corruption there, very high rates of poverty and very few protections for the ordinary citizen.
I would argue that any "pure" economic sysytem will fail. Socialism needs money to provide a net for people.  Captialism needs people with money to keep the business' running.

I don't think anyone here would argue against me if I said that the world is in a major economic down turn.  Corporate bailouts are on the increase. Concervative contries such as the US are in debt far beyond their means. 

 

[George Wallace]

The old Soviet Union went from being a purely Communist country to being a purely Captitalist country.  Now there is major corruption there, very high rates of poverty and very few protections for the ordinary citizen.
I would argue that any "pure" economic sysytem will fail.

I will agree that a purely economic system will fail if you are confusing it with a political system.  You need both to survive.  If you look around the world today at the various "Capitalist" states, you will notice that all their governments are different.  Some are Monarchy's, some are Republics, some are Constitutional Monarchy's, and so on and so on.  Each has its' own measure of success.  It is not Capitalism itself that will dictate a state's success, but the blend of Capitalism with the style of Government the State has.

I would argue that the old Soviet Union has dropped many of its' Communist and Socialist ways, and has adopted some forms of Capitalism; but I would hesitate to say that many of the former Warsaw Pact nations have fully changed over to Capitalistic States.  Those who were closely linked to Europe, even during the Cold War, and are in close proximity to the West, are finding the transition easier than those former Warsaw Pact nations to the East.  In fact I feel that many of the Eastern nations, the Stans, have seen very little change since the Wall came down.

 

[Teeps74]

...and lots make so much f%*#ing money dealing drugs, shaking innocent small business owners down, recruiting runaways and beating them into prostitutes that they consider jail just 'part of the program'. They don't want to "rehabilitate" any more than you wish to start geting paid less next year than you do right now.

Criminality comes about from a lack of money is one of the biggest lies in history. It comes about from the gigantic amount of money there is too be made abusing others of our species.

Start killing drug dealers, pimps, and other assorted murderers/thugs and watch the prison problem clear up quite fast....

Now, with that out of the way,...back to the socialist stuff.

Nothing is that simple. Ignoring that fact, will not remove the issue. Simply killing dealers, pimps etc will not make the problem go away, because they people you refer to would continue to do what they do out of greed. We currently do not make even the smallest of efforts to rehabilitate criminals. Not even the smallest. We warehouse them in colleges for criminal activity, and may as well give out diplomas at the end.

Not much different from COIN. Failure to address root causes, and just killing everything, all you get is a nasty nasty flavoured self licking lollipop. The problem will never go away. There are those that will have to be killed. Period, full stop. But the targetting has to be exacting, as the insurgency will not go away untill the smaller players are given something else to do.

 

[Kirkhill]

I will agree that a purely economic system will fail if you are confusing it with a political system.  You need both to survive.  If you look around the world today at the various "Capitalist" states, you will notice that all their governments are different.  Some are Monarchy's, some are Republics, some are Constitutional Monarchy's, and so on and so on.  Each has its' own measure of success.  It is not Capitalism itself that will dictate a state's success, but the blend of Capitalism with the style of Government the State has.

I would argue that the old Soviet Union has dropped many of its' Communist and Socialist ways, and has adopted some forms of Capitalism; but I would hesitate to say that many of the former Warsaw Pact nations have fully changed over to Capitalistic States.  Those who were closely linked to Europe, even during the Cold War, and are in close proximity to the West, are finding the transition easier than those former Warsaw Pact nations to the East.  In fact I feel that many of the Eastern nations, the Stans, have seen very little change since the Wall came down.

Well said George. 

The key to survival anywhere - parliament, the market place, or the BATTLEFIELD -  is adaptability.  Or in the old idiom of the CF in the 80s....."MaxFlex".

No single solution will work for all situations.  Any plan based on a rigid structure will fail.  Any structure based on a single, simple plan will fail catastrophically.

There is no single "order" that will make the world less chaotic.  Chaos exists and will always exist and is as constant as hurricanes and ice storms.  All you can do is manage yourself in a chaotic environment  and keep your options open.  Hopefully one of your choices will be an effective survival mechanism.

Lesson from my father:  On going to the race track - always place two bets.  One on the nose (the favourite) and one on the tail (the long shot).  With the fovourite you are least likely to lose money but won't make much either, maybe enough to cover the cost of another ticket.  With the longshot you are most likely to lose money but could win big.  By betting the nose and tail, you may end up winning big or at very least breaking even with the favourite win paying for the losing gamble.

Adapt and overcome.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

We currently do not make even the smallest of efforts to rehabilitate criminals. Not even the smallest. We warehouse them in colleges for criminal activity, and may as well give out diplomas at the end.

WHAT!!!!!...................gee I guess the Psychiatrists, Psychometrists, Doctors, Social workers, Bridge, Native Sons, ILO, and of course the NA, AA, ACA,Toastmasters and the One on One volunteers just hang around all day at my work place sucking up oxygen?

Oh wait, I almost forgot us Correctional Officers who aren't called that there, .....we are "Case Managers".

Next time when you know not of what you speak please check your typing fingers at the door when you enter..............

 

[Teeps74]

WHAT!!!!!...................gee I guess the Psychiatrists, Psychometrists, Doctors, Social workers, Bridge, Native Sons, ILO, and of course the NA, AA, ACA,Toastmasters and the One on One volunteers just hang around all day at my work place sucking up oxygen?

Oh wait, I almost forgot us Correctional Officers who aren't called that there, .....we are "Case Managers".

Next time when you know not of what you speak please check your typing fingers at the door when you enter..............

Now, nothing I am saying here, is meant as a slag in any way shape or form towards CSC officers. You are doing a helluva job, under exceptionally difficult circumstances. My mom worked KP in the RTC, and I have an uncle, and a couple of cousins working within the CSC as officers. Do I have a clear picture? Absolutly not, it is coloured by the ones relating the best they can their own expereinces.

I do know, that the guards I know, and have met, are working hard, in high stress environments, doing the absolute best they can, with the situation given to them by someone flying a desk, no where near general population, or any of the blocks.

In my previous life, as a security guard in a Social Services office (2000), I dealt with the very same people you deal with. I can say with absolute certainty, that if there was rehabilitative services inside Collins Bay, Millhaven, KP, or Joyceville, it was not, in most cases, evident in the ex-cons I met at Social Services. I got to know a lot of those ex-cons (the system will make you wait in the waiting room, sometimes for a long time, before a worker is available). Some made it. Some did not. An awful lot of recycling going on.

So, when I say "We currently do not make even the smallest of efforts to rehabilitate criminals." Allow me to modify that. We are making minimal efforts. At best. Those services you list, are offered, and some are even ordered to participate. Is there a mechanism to force them to actually participate? Or is it so much lip service as what I witnessed on a daily basis for $7.85 an hour, with no barriers in a room with murderers, thugs (most of whom are repeat offenders), rapists and dealers...

The services are available, but no different really then hanging up a shingle, "Addictions Counsellor" at Jane and Finch. Some people will use that "counsellor". Will the people that should be, be making use of this?

And rehabilitating has to go further then simple counselling. Where exactly, who knows. I do know the "clients" I dealt with, many of whom were violent, whatever they got, did not work. Why? I do not know. But dealing with the end product, 5 days a week, for what I was making... Do I know everything, or anything about the system inside? Probably not... I only know some of the end product.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

So, when I say "We currently do not make even the smallest of efforts to rehabilitate criminals." Allow me to modify that. We are making minimal efforts. At best. Those services you list, are offered, and some are even ordered to participate. Is there a mechanism to force them to actually participate? Or is it so much lip service as what I witnessed on a daily basis for $7.85 an hour, with no barriers in a room with murderers, thugs (most of whom are repeat offenders), rapists and dealers...

Minimal?...................still friggin' more than the victims get. In my place they get next day service from the shrinks, Doctors, etc.....would any of us on the street get that?

"Rehabilitate"...what a neat word.

I'm going to assume you are a heterosexual male. Now then, I want to "rehabilitate" you, could you please give me a time frame for how many classes/courses you will need before I can "rehabilitate" you into becoming a gay male?

What?...never you say?.....................well there it is folks, bottom line.
[not insulting sexual preferences here but I think all can see that no amount of "rehabilitation" will change yours]

...but wait, you want me to "force" you somehow to take that course?   Just curious, what kind of "force" would be required to make you take that course and of course I can assume you will be actually paying close attention?

 

[Snafu-Bar]

When cleaning the gene pool, one tends to scrape the scum off the top so the rest can swim freely about in the pool.....where's that damn scraper?......

 

[pizzathahut]

I agree with some of the posts in here in regards to prisoners. Make em work. Find the menial tasks which cost the taxpayers and make the prisons tend to it. Maybe throw a touch of Military Doctrine into the prison as well. Prisoners have shown they are incapable of accepting the freedom they had, otherwise they wouldn't be in prison. They need to be school'd on how to conduct themselves in society. I think Tuff luv is the answer.

 

[Blindspot]

I'm going to assume you are a heterosexual male. Now then, I want to "rehabilitate" you, could you please give me a time frame for how many classes/courses you will need before I can "rehabilitate" you into becoming a gay male?

It's called elementary school.  ;D

 

[Danjanou]

It's called elementary school.  ;D

Where the hell did you go to school?