Oldgateboatdriver
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I wasn't singling them out as an exoneration of all the others. Trust me on that.
AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
- Thread starter Ex-Dragoon
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Meanwhile look at what the French are getting, the cost (US$) and schedule:
More details here:
Then there are our two JSS, on verra:
Mark
Ottawa
More details here:
France Orders Four Logistic Support Ships
https://www.marinelink.com/news/france-orders-four-logistic-support-ships-462398
Then there are our two JSS, on verra:
...delivery of the first vessel, the future HMCS Protecteur, in 2022/23. Following delivery by Seaspan’s Vancouver Shipyards Co. Ltd, the RCN will conduct a series of trials to ensure the ship meets operational requirements. The second ship, the future HMCS Preserver, is expected to be delivered sometime in 2023/24...
Project costs
The budget for the Joint Support Ship project is $3.4 billion (excluding taxes)...
Artist rendering of the future Protecteur-class ship replenishing a Canadian vessel at sea.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/business-equipment/joint-support-ship.page
Mark
Ottawa
Oldgateboatdriver
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JMCanada said:
True. But with the caveat that it takes only three days for France to swing one AOR from the Atlantic fleet home port to the Mediterranean one and vice-versa, as opposed to three weeks for us in Canada.
It's not just the days. The main point is the criteria behind: two fleets, one per coast. What if the Panama channel or the strait of Gibraltar were "blocked" in case of conflict?
On the other hand, France has overseas territories in the Caribe and the Pacific.
On the other hand, France has overseas territories in the Caribe and the Pacific.
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This just came out - JSS timelines 'moved up' - though they DO NOT put a date/year on when this will occur - still not expecting one ready and delivered to the Navy before 2022/23 at the earliest.
https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/canada/ottawa-moving-up-construction-of-navys-new-support-ships-in-vancouver-281846/
Ottawa moving up construction of new naval support ship in Vancouver
TTAWA — In a move likely to send shockwaves through Quebec and its shipbuilding industry, the federal government has decided to speed construction of one of its permanent new naval support vessels.
The government's multibillion-dollar shipbuilding plan has long called for Seaspan Marine in Vancouver to build an ocean-science vessel for the Canadian Coast Guard before turning to the navy's two new support ships.
But the federal procurement department says the government will finish one of the support ships — which carry food, ammunition and fuel for fleets at sea — before moving onto the science vessel.
The second joint support ship, as the permanent vessels are called, will be built last.
The government last year approved a plan for Seaspan to start some advance work on one of the joint support ships as the shipyard waited for the coast guard to finish designing the science vessel.
The decision to now finish the first ship will "build on the good momentum underway," said Public Services and Procurement Canada spokesman Pierre-Alain Bujold.
It will also ensure the shipyard stays busy so workers aren't sitting idle or laid off while they wait for the ocean-science vessel, he added, and allow time for lessons to be absorbed before construction of the second joint support ship.
"This decision makes good sense and is a prime example of how the (national shipbuilding strategy) allows us to be flexible in meeting Royal Canadian Navy and Canadian Coast Guard requirements while finding efficiencies at shipyards."
https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/canada/ottawa-moving-up-construction-of-navys-new-support-ships-in-vancouver-281846/
Ottawa moving up construction of new naval support ship in Vancouver
TTAWA — In a move likely to send shockwaves through Quebec and its shipbuilding industry, the federal government has decided to speed construction of one of its permanent new naval support vessels.
The government's multibillion-dollar shipbuilding plan has long called for Seaspan Marine in Vancouver to build an ocean-science vessel for the Canadian Coast Guard before turning to the navy's two new support ships.
But the federal procurement department says the government will finish one of the support ships — which carry food, ammunition and fuel for fleets at sea — before moving onto the science vessel.
The second joint support ship, as the permanent vessels are called, will be built last.
The government last year approved a plan for Seaspan to start some advance work on one of the joint support ships as the shipyard waited for the coast guard to finish designing the science vessel.
The decision to now finish the first ship will "build on the good momentum underway," said Public Services and Procurement Canada spokesman Pierre-Alain Bujold.
It will also ensure the shipyard stays busy so workers aren't sitting idle or laid off while they wait for the ocean-science vessel, he added, and allow time for lessons to be absorbed before construction of the second joint support ship.
"This decision makes good sense and is a prime example of how the (national shipbuilding strategy) allows us to be flexible in meeting Royal Canadian Navy and Canadian Coast Guard requirements while finding efficiencies at shipyards."
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And gov't now does not even have a timeline for Seaspan to build the Diefenbaker, the (one only) new polar icebreaker ( http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2018-19/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html ) for CCG, to replace 50 year-old Louis St. Laurent ( https://inter-j01.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fdat/vessels/vessel-details/81 ). That ship is supposed to be final build in a firm series, maybe now sometime in 2030s?
Mark
Ottawa
Mark
Ottawa
pardon my ignorance, but isn't it better to build all of one type before moving on to another? That way you order multiple sets of the same item, reducing costs for suppliers who can set up to assemble in an assembly-line format rather than building one off's and then moving on to another? Better to build both JSS or finish building the science ships with common hull and propulsion designs rather than jumping back and forth. This brilliant move will only end up costing even more and for little if any gain. Getting Davies into the equation would allow us to bridge over for the navy while providing a good back-up in the form of the second Asterix but more importantly get the coast guard the ship they absolutely need before the St. Laurent sinks at her anchor.
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Czech_pivo said:
Sounds like all the posturing by Davie has backfired on them, no chance of selling that second IAOR now. I would also imagine as soon as the first JSS is delivered the government if Liberal will cut Asterix loose.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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Happy for Seaspan, I wish Davie would dial it back, I am happy about what they did and support a 2nd ship from them, because I want 4 AOR`s.
More votes to be converted in Quebec than there were to be in Victoria, BC. Unbelievably stupid move by the Liberals, all because of the pettiness of not wanting to accept that perhaps ALL of Canada's shipyards major should be included in the NATIONAL shipbuilding strategy...
I've witnessed first hand the latte sipping hippies that seem to land 'advisor' jobs at Global Affairs, and comments have been made about those individuals here also. (I'm not speaking about the seasoned folks who have been there between political parties, but rather the lackies that follow around and 'advise' the ministers.) I seriously wonder why some of our senior political appointments don't think about both sides of the coin, and try to come up with solutions to make their base happy, but also grow their base by converting folks who may otherwise vote for the other side of the coin.
In regards to this matter, the Liberals would have been far better off going along the lines of "The previous government didn't include Davies in the shipbuilding strategy due to the restructuring happening at the time. However, as we re-evaluate the strategy and make decisions on how to proceed, Quebec should absolutely be included as we value the skill, hard work, and dedication these families bring to the country. The recently acquired icebreakers were sorely needed, and Davie did an amazing job at getting the ships available on time and on budget. It's a shame the previous government didn't see the value you bring to the country, but we do." -- or whatever other pandering nonsense they want to come up with.
By going about it slightly differently...
- Davies is included. The GoC gets another major shipyard producing ships it needs. It possibly wins some votes in a predominantly Conservative region - which, you know, might be important given an election coming up. Stabilizes employment in the region.
- It allows for the RCN to have 2 AORs. 1 per coast. Allows the RCN to still deploy one, if the other has an accident, needs repairs, needs work, etc etc. It also allows for a spare, which the GoC can lease to other countries when needed - ironic, since thats what we had to do not too long ago.
- It allows the GoC to deploy a useful contribution in the form of a support ship to allied operations, where it may not want to deploy a fighting ship. (Similar to us providers tankers & C-17's to an operation we don't deploy F-18's to -- still a useful contribution)
- It allows the GoC to deploy a ship of this sort to emergency situations & disaster relief, which is always great for PR.
While most countries, organizations, and groups of sensibly minded people have a meeting to discuss "What can do we do maximize our options while staying within a certain budget?" I swear our meetings must be like "What can we do to limit our options as much as possible, so we don't actually have to do anything?"
I've witnessed first hand the latte sipping hippies that seem to land 'advisor' jobs at Global Affairs, and comments have been made about those individuals here also. (I'm not speaking about the seasoned folks who have been there between political parties, but rather the lackies that follow around and 'advise' the ministers.) I seriously wonder why some of our senior political appointments don't think about both sides of the coin, and try to come up with solutions to make their base happy, but also grow their base by converting folks who may otherwise vote for the other side of the coin.
In regards to this matter, the Liberals would have been far better off going along the lines of "The previous government didn't include Davies in the shipbuilding strategy due to the restructuring happening at the time. However, as we re-evaluate the strategy and make decisions on how to proceed, Quebec should absolutely be included as we value the skill, hard work, and dedication these families bring to the country. The recently acquired icebreakers were sorely needed, and Davie did an amazing job at getting the ships available on time and on budget. It's a shame the previous government didn't see the value you bring to the country, but we do." -- or whatever other pandering nonsense they want to come up with.
By going about it slightly differently...
- Davies is included. The GoC gets another major shipyard producing ships it needs. It possibly wins some votes in a predominantly Conservative region - which, you know, might be important given an election coming up. Stabilizes employment in the region.
- It allows for the RCN to have 2 AORs. 1 per coast. Allows the RCN to still deploy one, if the other has an accident, needs repairs, needs work, etc etc. It also allows for a spare, which the GoC can lease to other countries when needed - ironic, since thats what we had to do not too long ago.
- It allows the GoC to deploy a useful contribution in the form of a support ship to allied operations, where it may not want to deploy a fighting ship. (Similar to us providers tankers & C-17's to an operation we don't deploy F-18's to -- still a useful contribution)
- It allows the GoC to deploy a ship of this sort to emergency situations & disaster relief, which is always great for PR.
While most countries, organizations, and groups of sensibly minded people have a meeting to discuss "What can do we do maximize our options while staying within a certain budget?" I swear our meetings must be like "What can we do to limit our options as much as possible, so we don't actually have to do anything?"
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In the end, it's probably good for everybody that they moved the timeline up, even though it's a posterity move rather than common sense. Federal and Davie can move on to the next skirmish, the RCN might get a new ship and the poli's get to feel smug and clever. :
As for Asterix, I hope they won't be cutting her loose until there are two JSS floating and working, which is probably still more than 5 years away for both, regardless of what the PR machine spits out. When the JSS is in the water, and functioning, then that will be the day to acknowledge they did something useful in spite of themselves.
As for Asterix, I hope they won't be cutting her loose until there are two JSS floating and working, which is probably still more than 5 years away for both, regardless of what the PR machine spits out. When the JSS is in the water, and functioning, then that will be the day to acknowledge they did something useful in spite of themselves.
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CCG's shipbuilding needs are not related to the RCN's; it's a great pity that civilian and naval requirements were bundled together by the Conservatives in the, ha, ha, "National Shipbuilding Strategy".
It's almost as if the government's civilian and military aviation fleets were all procured under one over-arching "strategy" to build everything in Canada. With most of the necessary industrial plant having to be built first (Bell helicopters aside, boy they get a lot of sole-sourcing for CCG and RCAF with almost no political/media attention/controversy--wonder why).
Shudder. Gasp. Help. Madness. Quel désastre.
Mark
Ottawa
It's almost as if the government's civilian and military aviation fleets were all procured under one over-arching "strategy" to build everything in Canada. With most of the necessary industrial plant having to be built first (Bell helicopters aside, boy they get a lot of sole-sourcing for CCG and RCAF with almost no political/media attention/controversy--wonder why).
Shudder. Gasp. Help. Madness. Quel désastre.
Mark
Ottawa
Yes, this is how it is usually done in countries that have a clue about how to nurture a shipbuilding industry. We, however, are now paying the heavy price for the gross incompetence of previous governments. Please note that I am not suggesting that the present government is competent.YZT580 said:
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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They are completing the 3 OFSV's now, something is wrong with the SV design I suspect, so this gives them a chance to get it sorted. Davie could be given a contract to replace the 1100 class bouy tenders and Seaspan the other larger breakers.
Oldgateboatdriver
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Colin P said:
That was the hidden message nicely hidden in the press release. This change in order of production has nothing to do with trying to satisfy urgent needs of the Navy. It has everything to do with keeping the yard busy while the Coast Guard sorts itself out on the Science vessel.
Colin is probably right that there is something wrong with the design of the OSV. However, I am not as nice as he is and I believe that the design problem is not from a "architectural" point of view but rather because the Coast Guard brass, after all these years of lead time, still haven't been able to decide for itself what it wants the vessel to be able to do. It's gross "brass" incompetence or bureaucratic anarchy in the team putting the reqs together that is slowing the process - and no-one with the balls to drive the damn process forward.
I could be wrong, but Coast Guard brass has never impressed me - seagoing personnel, yes, but their shore side brass? No!
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