AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[SeaKingTacco]

All those issues sound like the RCN failed to provide professional supervision of the refits and repairs.

Funny way to spell “ADM (Mat)/PSPC”…

 

[dapaterson]

Funny way to spell “ADM (Mat)/PSPC”…

It's not either / or - projects have both a sponsor and an implementer. The RCN owns the requirement - if they are hands off...

 

[Czech_pivo]

Facts according to you eh?

Point is that they did it to meet the delivery timeline and that was their driving factor. You're telling me that they couldn't build a regular superstructure in Canada regardless of the cruise ship technology? If it was under the NSS it wouldn't be allowed.

Quebec shipyard late delivering Coast Guard icebreakers after pushing federal government on purchase

Ottawa agreed to purchase the three used civilian ships at a cost of at least $827M in August 2018 after Trudeau surprised many by personally announcing negotiations

nationalpost.com

Of course we had to forcibly take ships back out of refit as the yards and unions played games with refits all the time. One yard in Quebec cut a hole in the ship so we couldn't take it back. The Margaree was stolen with tugs in the middle of the night out of Sorel and Protecteur was taken out of Lauzon in 79. because of union shenanigan's. Just because you never head about it, it never happened. Of course this was years ago, but Davie has always made a point on celebrating their history.

Always warms my heart to hear someone tell stories of Unions and the shenanigans that they tend to play.
In these examples it re-enforces the argument that they are only out for themselves and not for the rest of Canadian society by sabotaging their nations warships to serve their own purposes.

 

[suffolkowner]

It's not either / or - projects have both a sponsor and an implementer. The RCN owns the requirement - if they are hands off...

Imagine a private construction project without ongoing supervision. Now admitedly it is mostly done by the GC which in this case is the shipyard but still how many private construction projects in Canada would be on par with a refit of a RCN ship or approach a $4B new frigate

 

[Stoker]

Twist things you don't know, as usual.

I served in PROTECTEUR in 1980: She hadn't been in refit for four years and was going in refit the next year. So, no, she wasn't in refit in 1979.

As for MARGAREE, she was in refit in MONTREAL, at Vickers, and was towed to Halifax as a mutually agreed move with the navy so she wouldn't be stuck in the ice bound St Lawrence system in winter. That is not "stealing" a ship, which is what you mentioned was done many times before.

As for the superstructure thing for Asterix, keep not reading what I write: It confirms the opening statement of my post above.

I gave you the only two instances of "forcible" taking of ships by the RCN. If you can prove with actual evidence other than your word, of any other "forcible" taking, I am all ears. Agreeing to change a ship's location in mid refit is not "forcible".

No I got my accounts from people who were there and perhaps all the dates are wrong, I wasn't there but I'm sure you'll say they're lying because your were in the know. Its amazing the history you hear from fellow sailors.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I will not even comment.

Not quite: The shipyard in Sorel, named "Marine Industry" was a ship building yard. It did not do any repairs or refit work, but I am willing to accept that the sailors here are confused as to which Quebec shipyard is which since there were five at the time.

 

[Halifax Tar]

If by "faulted" meaning a steam of unsolicited bids, Davie and Federal Fleets press releases and a steady diet of boosts that the ship is better than the JSS....properly the reason why they did get the 3rd shipyard status for many years.

Can you provide some examples where Davies has directly compared the Asterix to JSS ?

That would be a terribly silly thing to do.

All those issues sound like the RCN failed to provide professional supervision of the refits and repairs.

That would never happen.

 

[Stoker]

Can you provide some examples where Davies has directly compared the Asterix to JSS ?

That would be a terribly silly thing to do.



That would never happen.

Most of my interactions was with the head of PR for Federal Fleet. He used to cruise some of the Navy facebook pages commenting on people talking about JSS and Asterix. He made alot of claims about the ship, he was called out on a number of them as well.

 

[markppcli]

No I got my accounts from people who were there and perhaps all the dates are wrong, I wasn't there but I'm sure you'll say they're lying because your were in the know. Its amazing the history you hear from fellow sailors.

View attachment 87474View attachment 87475View attachment 87476

Ah well if a single random source from Reddit said so it must be true

 

[Halifax Tar]

Most of my interactions was with the head of PR for Federal Fleet. He used to cruise some of the Navy facebook pages commenting on people talking about JSS and Asterix. He made alot of claims about the ship, he was called out on a number of them as well.

Hmmm interesting that's not what I was led to believe from your original quote, but I digress.

I agree comparing the two is a fools errand. JSS is much more capable. Having said that, I think there is a place for an Asterix styled AOR.

 

[Stoker]

Ah well if a single random source from Reddit said so it must be true

No, multiple accounts from people I know to be in the RCN who were Coxns, Chief Engineers etc. Not reddit. I suppose they could be all lying of course.

 

[Stoker]

Hmmm interesting that's not what I was led to believe from your original quote, but I digress.

I agree comparing the two is a fools errand. JSS is much more capable. Having said that, I think there is a place for an Asterix styled AOR.

We'll he did post some side to side comparisons of JSS verses Asterix. I agree there is currently a place for Asterix as something is better than nothing. IF we ended up buying it as the 3rd AOR then I would like to see actual GOC employees or all RCN running it, crewing as it is probably won't happen. In a perfect world buy a 3rd JSS or a few offshore built oilers to service our allies. I predict we'll look at the numbers in three years of purchasing, look at the condition of Asterix and most likely will not buy it. Of course Davie and Federal Fleet will scream blue murder.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That's why we need a proper RCFA who can run large vessels. We can learn how to do it properly from our allies.

 

[Kirkhill]

That's why we need a proper RCFA who can run large vessels. We can learn how to do it properly from our allies.

Business opportunity for Federal Fleet Services

Navy Could Sideline 17 Support Ships Due to Manpower Issues - USNI News

Military Sealift Command has drafted a plan to remove the crews from 17 Navy support ships due to a lack of qualified mariners to operate the vessels across the Navy, USNI News learned. The MSC “force generation reset” identified two Lewis and Clark replenishment ships, one fleet oiler, a dozen...

news.usni.org

17 ships sidelined

12/14 Spearhead EPF/JHSV/TSV sidelined
2/4 Chesty Pulller ESB sidelined

2/14 Lewis and Clark T-AKE sidelined
1/15 T-AO Fleet Oiler sidelined

4500 Billets in the MSC fleet
1.27 Mariners for each billet available
2.00 Mariners required for each billet.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The MSC is running their crews into the ground. Once your on a ship, there is little chance of leaving as they are so short handed. But they refuse to limit the number of sailing. People are enticed by the offers, but run away as soon as they talk to anyone that did it. If they can limit the number of sailing and fix that issue, likley they can start self correcting. A lot of them were saying they loved the work, but needed to leave to have any sort of life.

 

[Kirkhill]

Related - the need for a steady supply of mariners.

Often Overlooked, Domestic Maritime Industry is Key to National Security - Defense Opinion

By renewing their support for the Merchant Marine Act of 1920, more commonly known as the Jones Act, Congress can bolster our economic and national security.

defenseopinion.com

The loss of the coastal traders and break-bulk cargo ships to containerized rail?

A rationale for a government subsidized coastal trade fleet?

 

[Kirkhill]

Business opportunity for Federal Fleet Services

Navy Could Sideline 17 Support Ships Due to Manpower Issues - USNI News

Military Sealift Command has drafted a plan to remove the crews from 17 Navy support ships due to a lack of qualified mariners to operate the vessels across the Navy, USNI News learned. The MSC “force generation reset” identified two Lewis and Clark replenishment ships, one fleet oiler, a dozen...

news.usni.org

17 ships sidelined

12/14 Spearhead EPF/JHSV/TSV sidelined
2/4 Chesty Pulller ESB sidelined

2/14 Lewis and Clark T-AKE sidelined
1/15 T-AO Fleet Oiler sidelined

4500 Billets in the MSC fleet
1.27 Mariners for each billet available
2.00 Mariners required for each billet.

Got to thinking about those EPFs being sidelined with no crews and remembered this article.

Austal USA delivers EPF-13; the US Navy's largest surface vessel with autonomous capability

COMPANY ANNOUNCEMENT 20 FEBRUARY 2023 Austal USA delivers EPF-13; the US Navy's Largest Surface Ship with Autonomous Capability Austal Limited (Austal) (ASX: ASB) is pleased to announce Austal USA has delivered Expeditionary Fast Transport USNS Apalachicola (EPF 13) to the United States Navy...

www.austal.com

This ships, conceivably, could all be converted to autonomous service by this time.

The sister class LCS Trimaran already demonstrated the ability to launch an SM6 from a sea can launcher

Littoral Combat Ship Fires a Standard Missile 6 from Experimental Launcher at Sea - USNI News

The Navy fired a Standard Missile 6 from an experimental missile launcher mounted on a Littoral Combat Ship Tuesday in the Eastern Pacific, the sea service announced. Photos of the test show the system firing the SM-6 from the launcher positioned on the flight deck of USS Savannah (LCS-26)...

news.usni.org

US Navy and Army's MK 70 Payload Delivery Systems Stretch Their Wings - Naval News

Last week we witnessed activity showing the US Navy and Army were both deploying their variants of Lockheed Martin MK 70 PDS around the globe

www.navalnews.com

That raises the question of how many 40 foot sea cans could be carried on the flight deck of the Spearheads, each with 4 VLS cells.



Here is the flight deck of the Spearhead EPF and the similarly sized flight deck of an Independence class LCS with the Mk70 40 ft Payload Delivery System that can launch 4 SM6s or Tomahawks, or 16 ESSMs amongst other missiles.

The USN may have generated a standby fleet of 14 uncrewed arsenal ships.

The Spearheads have a beam of 93.5 feet. TEUs have a width of 8 feet. 10 TEUs abreast and 2 fore and aft. Possible 20 PDS with 80 SM6 on 14 hulls = 1120 additional missiles.

The Independence hulls, 16 active, with a similar load out, would add a further 1280 SM6 missiles to the fleet.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

More progress on the 2nd AOR I believe

https://twitter.com/x/status/1828493260051939465

 

[Kirkhill]

Business opportunity for Federal Fleet Services

Navy Could Sideline 17 Support Ships Due to Manpower Issues - USNI News

Military Sealift Command has drafted a plan to remove the crews from 17 Navy support ships due to a lack of qualified mariners to operate the vessels across the Navy, USNI News learned. The MSC “force generation reset” identified two Lewis and Clark replenishment ships, one fleet oiler, a dozen...

news.usni.org

17 ships sidelined

12/14 Spearhead EPF/JHSV/TSV sidelined
2/4 Chesty Pulller ESB sidelined

2/14 Lewis and Clark T-AKE sidelined
1/15 T-AO Fleet Oiler sidelined

4500 Billets in the MSC fleet
1.27 Mariners for each billet available
2.00 Mariners required for each billet.

Not just a US and Canadian problem. The UK's RFA is also suffering

Setbacks in the Royal Navy’s effort to get newly acquired auxiliary ships into service | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

Not enough qualified Masters and Engineers.

 

[Kirkhill]

Related to the above

The new Proteus and Stirling Castle - bought used from civilian service.

Broken and laid up when used according to RN practice.

Partly due to the lack of willing and qualified civilians.

Early in 2023, the MoD purchased two former commercial vessels for the Naval Service. Despite their procurement ‘at pace’, RFA Proteus has yet to conduct any useful operations and RFA Stirling Castle is being laid up or ‘paused’ temporarily mainly due to a lack of qualified people to operate her.

RFA Stirling Castle was formally named at a ceremony held at Leith in April and so far has conducted some very limited trials with autonomous mine hunting boats in her intended role. Unfortunately, there was an incident with her 10-tonne deck crane which is no longer serviceable and repair will be a complex operation requiring removal from the ship. The crane is the only effective means to launch boats, rendering the ship inoperable in her primary role.

Since RFA Proteus was purchased in January 2023 she has spent most of her time in Cammell Laird shipyard (Jan-Sept 23, Dec-March 24, July 24 – present) or alongside in Devonport and Portland. She was supposed to enter service in the Summer of 2023 but this was wildly optimistic and she has yet to conduct any patrols of Critical Underwater Infrastructure as intended. The initial conversion took longer than expected, she then had to return to the yard for for hull certification. After two high-profile visits to London, she is now back in the shipyard.

Unconfirmed reports suggest FOST-mandated stop-start machinery drills upset equipment not intended to be operated that way and further slight damage was done to the ship by mistakes made during routine maintenance.

Despite the problems I would still propose buying used first. This allowed the RN/RFA to figure out what they don't know relatively cheaply and fast. The alternative would be speculating with no knowledge base to produce a prototype to break at some distant point in the future.