AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[PrairieFella]

The Rangers are the very definition of Defence on the cheap. It allows the government to say they're doing something without actually doing much if anything.
The Canadian Government would have a collective aneurysm if examined the original Rangers capabilities during WW II .
I suspect handing out sten guns to 14 year olds would really done wonders for their blood pressure.

Complete aside here, but speaking of STENs, I got my hands on one on the weekend, what a fucking cool little gun. I get why SMGs went away but man, I'd love to have one of those in my AFV rather than a rifle haha.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I'm wondering what a barge/landing craft would do for the Rangers that their typical 16-18' 'tin boat' and outboard wouldn't do (being able to afford one aside). Does a Ranger unit have issued kit beyond whatever is issued to the individual?

Other than some kind of government make-work project, it is likely that after the cost of building a facility, shipping raw materials, finding the power, etc., it is probably cheaper to buy a welded boat and have it shipped.

Beyond being the 'eyes and ears' and guides of the CAF in the region, trying involve them in actual military manoeuvers (assault landing, etc.) or some kind or maritime sovereignty/law enforcement seems beyond their mandate and someone might want to ask them if this is they want to do. They are volunteers, not at-will employees.

A landing craft that can bring in heavy equipment, allows for the construction of forward bases and communication arrays. Along with helping small communities. Also support the CAF when in the north conducting training.

 

[Kirkhill]

Keeping in mind that they still can't afford what they may want and might not have access to it.

Our federal government should be able to fix that. It is in our collective interest to secure those territories by keeping the locals happy and wanting to be part of Canada.

 

[Kirkhill]

The Rangers are the very definition of Defence on the cheap. It allows the government to say they're doing something without actually doing much if anything.
The Canadian Government would have a collective aneurysm if examined the original Rangers capabilities during WW II .
I suspect handing out sten guns to 14 year olds would really done wonders for their blood pressure.

Define "Defence".

Is it limited to repelling boarders? Or is it managing emergencies and disasters?

If the latter then I would be looking a plussing up the Rangers to be able to manage local emergencies to reduce the number of times the Feds/CAF have to come to their aid.

And given that aid includes supplying food when the ice roads form too late and melt too early then transport seems to be a critical requirement.

Likewise for fire season - transport to tackle fires and transport to move people out of the path of the fires.

 

[Kirkhill]

Any deep water port in the arctic unless its on an island will likely have rail access to the rest of Canada, defeating the need for roro

There's a funny thing. Many ports in Europe are in shallow estuaries. Some have to be managed by locks as well as dredging plans. I struggle to think of any deep water harbours that do not require maintenance.

All of those ports are accessible by rail. All of them have ferry service. RoRo is the standard solution for those ferries. Some of them operate in seasonal ice.

All of them are government subsidized when they are not government operated.

Many of those ports also have road and rail service to airfreight facilities.

...

It is not an either/or situation. It is an all of the above. That is how you prevent emergencies - through redundancy.

 

[GK .Dundas]

I

Complete aside here, but speaking of STENs, I got my hands on one on the weekend, what a fucking cool little gun. I get why SMGs went away but man, I'd love to have one of those in my AFV rather than a rifle haha.

I loved the old C1 SMG it truly was a wonderful weapon but would rather have a Rifle caliber weapon if it got really nasty.

 

[PrairieFella]

I

I loved the old C1 SMG it truly was a wonderful weapon but would rather have a Rifle caliber weapon if it got really nasty.

If I'm having to use my rifle outside of a couple specific dismounted tasks, I'm probably already a corpse lmao.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Rangers are the very definition of Defence on the cheap. It allows the government to say they're doing something without actually doing much if anything.
The Canadian Government would have a collective aneurysm if examined the original Rangers capabilities during WW II .
I suspect handing out sten guns to 14 year olds would really done wonders for their blood pressure.

Don't underestimate the value that the Rangers bring to Northern communities as a whole. Purpose, prestige and stable source of income, make a difference. In the larger communities that can support both a Ranger patrol and a Reserve unit, that would be a good way to help communities.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Don't underestimate the value that the Rangers bring to Northern communities as a whole. Purpose, prestige and stable source of income, make a difference. In the larger communities that can support both a Ranger patrol and a Reserve unit, that would be a good way to help communities.

Pride, attachment to a larger entity (Canada), increase self worth, some financial stability, independence, these are ALL worthwhile tasks. I would also look to see if there is any way that a bi-national/cultural set of exchanges between our Rangers and any Greenland equivalent can be established. We do it with our NATO allies (and others), there should be little reason why we don't do something similar with Greenland.

 

[MilEME09]

Don't underestimate the value that the Rangers bring to Northern communities as a whole. Purpose, prestige and stable source of income, make a difference. In the larger communities that can support both a Ranger patrol and a Reserve unit, that would be a good way to help communities.

and in DOMOPS the rangers are valuable for CIMIC, many of these communities are small and everyone knows everyone, so if you need something like a generator, need to use a facility, need a local guide? they know who to call to link you up quickly.

 

[YZT580]

There's a funny thing. Many ports in Europe are in shallow estuaries. Some have to be managed by locks as well as dredging plans. I struggle to think of any deep water harbours that do not require maintenance.

All of those ports are accessible by rail. All of them have ferry service. RoRo is the standard solution for those ferries. Some of them operate in seasonal ice.

All of them are government subsidized when they are not government operated.

Many of those ports also have road and rail service to airfreight facilities.

...

It is not an either/or situation. It is an all of the above. That is how you prevent emergencies - through redundancy.

It would be very hard to justify building rail lines to most of the northern communities. There is neither the population nor the possibility of industry to support such an expense. The environmental impact would be significant as construction would have to take the permafrost into consideration and every river has the potential for flooding with the ice breakup in the spring. Currently, apart from the Churchill line there is only one line that goes into the northland and that ends at the southern side of Great Slave Lake at Hay River. It would require an additional 300 mile extension to reach Yellowknife. We southerners just don't appreciate the vast distances involved in the north.

 

[lenaitch]

Define "Defence".

Is it limited to repelling boarders? Or is it managing emergencies and disasters?

If the latter then I would be looking a plussing up the Rangers to be able to manage local emergencies to reduce the number of times the Feds/CAF have to come to their aid.

And given that aid includes supplying food when the ice roads form too late and melt too early then transport seems to be a critical requirement.

Likewise for fire season - transport to tackle fires and transport to move people out of the path of the fires.

Seeing as the Rangers are a subset of the CAF, then it seems natural to assume that they support the CAF mandate. There has been many pixels spilled of whether the CAF writ large should be the go-to response for domestic emergencies. If they are to have a broader mandate than the CAF itslef seems to want, maybe they should be re-organized under another department of government.

A landing craft that can bring in heavy equipment, allows for the construction of forward bases and communication arrays. Along with helping small communities. Also support the CAF when in the north conducting training.

Not arguing the barge or their utility in the north, but is it envisioned that the Rangers only assist the regular CAF during training or 'peacetime', but not should things heat up? If they aren't to be deployed when things may be 'dangerous', then perhaps other elements of CAF who can be placed in harm's way should be trained instead. What is the value of them being trained to put you ashore when you couldn't rely on them to do it during a time of conflict.

 

[Kirkhill]

It would be very hard to justify building rail lines to most of the northern communities. There is neither the population nor the possibility of industry to support such an expense. The environmental impact would be significant as construction would have to take the permafrost into consideration and every river has the potential for flooding with the ice breakup in the spring. Currently, apart from the Churchill line there is only one line that goes into the northland and that ends at the southern side of Great Slave Lake at Hay River. It would require an additional 300 mile extension to reach Yellowknife. We southerners just don't appreciate the vast distances involved in the north.

Sept-Iles to Schefferville railroad was built to serve the iron mines at Schefferville. - 351 miles (565 km)

North Bay to Moosonee railroad was built to serve the Nipissing - Temiscaming area - 675 miles (1080 km) - they produced gold, silver, copper and nickel as well as timber.

The Pas to Churchill railroad was built in 1929-31 to ship grain seasonally. An alternate to the seasonal shipping from Thunder Bay. - 510 miles (810 km)

....

Now we are looking at 4 nickel mines across the top of Quebec and Labrador, as well as the iron mine at Mary's River on Baffin. We can ship ore to Europe or we can ship metals to Europe.

Churchill has access to coal, oil, natural gas, potash, salt, caesium, tantallum, nickel, uranium, zinc, copper, goldn wheat, barley, lentils, peas.....

A railroad from Gray's Bay to Hay River would serve multiple diamond, gold, silver, uranium and rare earth mines - either shipping ore north for export or south for processing and export.

...

I guess we aren't who we used to be.

 

[Kirkhill]

Seeing as the Rangers are a subset of the CAF, then it seems natural to assume that they support the CAF mandate. There has been many pixels spilled of whether the CAF writ large should be the go-to response for domestic emergencies. If they are to have a broader mandate than the CAF itslef seems to want, maybe they should be re-organized under another department of government.

I've wondered that myself. Whether or not they should be under Emergency Preparedness, Public Safety or even associated with the RCMP.

Not arguing the barge or their utility in the north, but is it envisioned that the Rangers only assist the regular CAF during training or 'peacetime', but not should things heat up? If they aren't to be deployed when things may be 'dangerous', then perhaps other elements of CAF who can be placed in harm's way should be trained instead. What is the value of them being trained to put you ashore when you couldn't rely on them to do it during a time of conflict.

 

[lenaitch]

Sept-Iles to Schefferville railroad was built to serve the iron mines at Schefferville. - 351 miles (565 km)

North Bay to Moosonee railroad was built to serve the Nipissing - Temiscaming area - 675 miles (1080 km) - they produced gold, silver, copper and nickel as well as timber.

The Pas to Churchill railroad was built in 1929-31 to ship grain seasonally. An alternate to the seasonal shipping from Thunder Bay. - 510 miles (810 km)

....

Now we are looking at 4 nickel mines across the top of Quebec and Labrador, as well as the iron mine at Mary's River on Baffin. We can ship ore to Europe or we can ship metals to Europe.

Churchill has access to coal, oil, natural gas, potash, salt, caesium, tantallum, nickel, uranium, zinc, copper, goldn wheat, barley, lentils, peas.....

A railroad from Gray's Bay to Hay River would serve multiple diamond, gold, silver, uranium and rare earth mines - either shipping ore north for export or south for processing and export.

...

I guess we aren't who we used to be.

Which is all to say that, unless a northern access railway has an economic foundation, it can't exist without being subsidized or owned outright by the government.

Profitable freight rail to Schefferville no longer exists. The last several hundred kilometers was sold to a FN group and is subsidized (besides, that line was never connected to the NA rail network).

I'm not aware that rail between Cochrane and Moosonee ever hauled mineral resources. In earlier days it supported the building of power stations on the Moose River system, and did support the building of the Victor diamond mine.

Even for Ontario's Ring of Fire, they are still proposing a haul road rather than rail. The upfront cost of rail was seen to be 3x that of a road and when the mines play out, you are left with an uneconomical rail line.

Rail only makes sense to a mine if you output is measured in tons, not ounces.

 

[quadrapiper]

Seeing as the Rangers are a subset of the CAF, then it seems natural to assume that they support the CAF mandate. There has been many pixels spilled of whether the CAF writ large should be the go-to response for domestic emergencies. If they are to have a broader mandate than the CAF itslef seems to want, maybe they should be re-organized under another department of government.


Not arguing the barge or their utility in the north, but is it envisioned that the Rangers only assist the regular CAF during training or 'peacetime', but not should things heat up? If they aren't to be deployed when things may be 'dangerous', then perhaps other elements of CAF who can be placed in harm's way should be trained instead. What is the value of them being trained to put you ashore when you couldn't rely on them to do it during a time of conflict.

A barge/landing craft that's already in place could be taken over by naval reservists or (engineers? Loggies?) in the case of hostilities.

Meanwhile, it's provided a decade or three of mobility for Ranger activities, DOMOPS, and what-have-you at points in the year when Desgagne isn't around, and without having to fly, barge, or rail-move something into the area.

Fund it out of Northern Affairs infrastructure monies if it's looking too varied in its use to be solely a CAF item.

 

[GK .Dundas]

A barge/landing craft that's already in place could be taken over by naval reservists or (engineers? Loggies?) in the case of hostilities.

Meanwhile, it's provided a decade or three of mobility for Ranger activities, DOMOPS, and what-have-you at points in the year when Desgagne isn't around, and without having to fly, barge, or rail-move something into the area.

Fund it out of Northern Affairs infrastructure monies if it's looking too varied in its use to be solely a CAF item.

Bingo!!!! We have a winner !

 

[GR66]

A barge/landing craft that's already in place could be taken over by naval reservists or (engineers? Loggies?) in the case of hostilities.

Meanwhile, it's provided a decade or three of mobility for Ranger activities, DOMOPS, and what-have-you at points in the year when Desgagne isn't around, and without having to fly, barge, or rail-move something into the area.

Fund it out of Northern Affairs infrastructure monies if it's looking too varied in its use to be solely a CAF item.

I envisioned the CB90's and landing craft as NAVRES taskings, not Ranger taskings. As has been mentioned by others that kind of role is outside their current purview.

Where I see a role for the Rangers is as guides/pilots with extensive knowledge of the local water conditions, tides, shoals, etc.

Of course there's nothing saying that locals couldn't become actual NAVRES members. Maybe set up something like a reverse SYEP/YTEP where northerners come South in the winter to do their training and return to their home communities in the summer to serve alongside southern NAVRES members that go north on a tasking.

 

[YZT580]

Sept-Iles to Schefferville railroad was built to serve the iron mines at Schefferville. - 351 miles (565 km)

North Bay to Moosonee railroad was built to serve the Nipissing - Temiscaming area - 675 miles (1080 km) - they produced gold, silver, copper and nickel as well as timber.

The Pas to Churchill railroad was built in 1929-31 to ship grain seasonally. An alternate to the seasonal shipping from Thunder Bay. - 510 miles (810 km)

....

Now we are looking at 4 nickel mines across the top of Quebec and Labrador, as well as the iron mine at Mary's River on Baffin. We can ship ore to Europe or we can ship metals to Europe.

Churchill has access to coal, oil, natural gas, potash, salt, caesium, tantallum, nickel, uranium, zinc, copper, goldn wheat, barley, lentils, peas.....

A railroad from Gray's Bay to Hay River would serve multiple diamond, gold, silver, uranium and rare earth mines - either shipping ore north for export or south for processing and export.

...

I guess we aren't who we used to be.

so about 4000 km in all to a place with absolutely no infrastructure at all and all across permafrost. I admire your optimism but financially it is currently a losing proposition. Perhaps you could make a case for building from the mines to Tuktoyaktuk where there is deeper water and a longer shipping season but I couldn't find a trace of any infrastructure around Gray's Bay.

 

[lenaitch]

so about 4000 km in all to a place with absolutely no infrastructure at all and all across permafrost. I admire your optimism but financially it is currently a losing proposition. Perhaps you could make a case for building from the mines to Tuktoyaktuk where there is deeper water and a longer shipping season but I couldn't find a trace of any infrastructure around Gray's Bay.

The government would have to get back into building, owning and running a railroad. Left to corporations, like we have now, thousands of kilometers of track have been abandoned over the past few decades because they were unprofitable.