AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Kirkhill]

The government would have to get back into building, owning and running a railroad. Left to corporations, like we have now, thousands of kilometers of track have been abandoned over the past few decades because they were unprofitable.

But they could still be in the interest of the national corporation.

 

[YZT580]

The government would have to get back into building, owning and running a railroad. Left to corporations, like we have now, thousands of kilometers of track have been abandoned over the past few decades because they were unprofitable.

at least part of the shutdown is a result of the tax structure. Towns and counties view the railroad as a tax windfall. Every inch of track is taxed so unless the line is super profitable, of course the railways would walk away from it. The railways were granted all the land they have or had on condition that they provided a service and some got rich because of it. When municipalities saw the opportunity to grab some of that wealth the less profitable lines were shut down. CN and CP went into the trucking industry because they were only paying for the acreage required for the warehousing so less efficient lines could be torn up and the land disposed of. Toronto to Owen Sound is a prime example.

 

[Kirkhill]

I envisioned the CB90's and landing craft as NAVRES taskings, not Ranger taskings. As has been mentioned by others that kind of role is outside their current purview.

Where I see a role for the Rangers is as guides/pilots with extensive knowledge of the local water conditions, tides, shoals, etc.

Of course there's nothing saying that locals couldn't become actual NAVRES members. Maybe set up something like a reverse SYEP/YTEP where northerners come South in the winter to do their training and return to their home communities in the summer to serve alongside southern NAVRES members that go north on a tasking.

Some reference numbers


1 CRPG covers all of Nunavut, Yukon and the Northwest Territories.
It finds 2000 Rangers and 1400 Junior Rangers for a total engagement of 3400.

The Population of Nunavut = 41,414 (Q1 2025) ~ Salaberry de Valleyfield = 41,655 (2021)
The Population of Yukon = 47,126 (Q1 2025) ~ Cornwall = 47,286 (2021)
The Population of the Northwest Territories = 45,074 (Q1 2025) ~ Chatham (ON) = 45,171 (2021)

Collectively the population is 130,195 ~ Abbotsford = 132,300 (2021)

....

3400 civic minded individuals from a population of 130,195 willing to put themselves under the guidance of the CAF

2.6% of the population

If the rest of Canada applied themselves equivalently then the CAF would have a pool of volunteers of 1,044,587
and the Brockville Rifles would have 578 of its 22,116 citizens on its rolls.

....................................................................................

I suspect that the Rangers employ the vast majority of the civic minded volunteers in the North, volunteers that in the South could find themselves in the fire department, SAR units, Red Cross, St John's etc.

I don't think the North has the capacity to manage a large number of discrete organizations.

I think that the Rangers form the sound base on which to build a multi-tasking organization that covers Public Safety, Emergency Preparedness and National Defence.

.....................................

PS 1 CRPG is responsible for 40% of Canada's territorial claims.

40% of Canada.
The population of Abbotsford.

 

[Rifleman62]

Complete aside here, but speaking of STENs, I got my hands on one on the weekend, what a fucking cool little gun. I get why SMGs went away but man, I'd love to have one of those in my AFV rather than a rifle haha.

You joke. If you had a STEN in your vehicle, it would probably go off when dismounting, jam when needed and miss the target unless you were at remarkably close range.
Second World War Vets said the best way to clear a room was to throw the STEN in and duck.
The Sterling SMG C1 was a huge improvement and a good weapon.

 

[Kirkhill]

at least part of the shutdown is a result of the tax structure. Towns and counties view the railroad as a tax windfall. Every inch of track is taxed so unless the line is super profitable, of course the railways would walk away from it. The railways were granted all the land they have or had on condition that they provided a service and some got rich because of it. When municipalities saw the opportunity to grab some of that wealth the less profitable lines were shut down. CN and CP went into the trucking industry because they were only paying for the acreage required for the warehousing so less efficient lines could be torn up and the land disposed of. Toronto to Owen Sound is a prime example.

The trucking business only works if there are roads for the trucks to drive on. And those are heavily subsidized by all levels of government.

Rail construction costs

• Less than 120km/h: $150,000/km

Cost Estimates

This page is a summary of the different cost classes we look at in this blog; each class listed below is explored in detail in its own post. Using the 2013 AECOM high-speed rail study as a starting point, numerous additional sources have been used to either confirm or question the reliability of the

hotrails.net

Road construction costs

Consequently, the cost to build new roads in rural municipalities was estimated at $0.4 million per two-lane equivalent kilometre, on average, compared with $1.2 million in urban municipalities.

The Daily — Canada's Core Public Infrastructure Survey: Replacement values, 2020

At the end of 2020, core public infrastructure in Canada, excluding social and affordable housing, had a total replacement value of $2.1 trillion.

www150.statcan.gc.ca

 

[Kirkhill]

You joke. If you had a STEN in your vehicle, it would probably go off when dismounting, jam when needed and miss the target unless you were at remarkably close range.
Second World War Vets said the best way to clear a room was to throw the STEN in and duck.
The Sterling SMG C1 was a huge improvement and a good weapon.

Just be careful going over bumps.

And I loved the SMiG as well.

 

[PrairieFella]

You joke. If you had a STEN in your vehicle, it would probably go off when dismounting, jam when needed and miss the target unless you were at remarkably close range.
Second World War Vets said the best way to clear a room was to throw the STEN in and duck.
The Sterling SMG C1 was a huge improvement and a good weapon.

Oh I know, I said I'd like an SMG, not a sten specifically haha.

 

[YZT580]

The trucking business only works if there are roads for the trucks to drive on. And those are heavily subsidized by all levels of government.

Rail construction costs

Cost Estimates

This page is a summary of the different cost classes we look at in this blog; each class listed below is explored in detail in its own post. Using the 2013 AECOM high-speed rail study as a starting point, numerous additional sources have been used to either confirm or question the reliability of the

hotrails.net

Road construction costs

The Daily — Canada's Core Public Infrastructure Survey: Replacement values, 2020

At the end of 2020, core public infrastructure in Canada, excluding social and affordable housing, had a total replacement value of $2.1 trillion.

www150.statcan.gc.ca

So roads are heavily subsidized by all levels of government whilst CN/CP must pay for every km installed and then pay property taxes, in some cases on each spur line separately which is one reason they tend to rip up every siding they can in some areas. If they buy trucks, they don't have to pay for the line installation and taxes are limited to fuel taxes, business taxes (common to both methods) and the previously mentioned warehouse acreage. Is it any wonder that all those lines have been deemed unprofitable and ripped up. I suspect that building lines across the NWT would cost considerably more than 150,000 but your point is taken. We should be encouraging more rail

 

[lenaitch]

at least part of the shutdown is a result of the tax structure. Towns and counties view the railroad as a tax windfall. Every inch of track is taxed so unless the line is super profitable, of course the railways would walk away from it. The railways were granted all the land they have or had on condition that they provided a service and some got rich because of it. When municipalities saw the opportunity to grab some of that wealth the less profitable lines were shut down. CN and CP went into the trucking industry because they were only paying for the acreage required for the warehousing so less efficient lines could be torn up and the land disposed of. Toronto to Owen Sound is a prime example.

I'm not sure the taxation rate is or was a huge impact, at least in Ontario. It is obviously more complex than I am understanding, but Ontario taxes railways on a per-acre basis as opposed to some provinces that use a tonne-mile calculation.

For all of the rail infrastructure in the City of Toronto, its tax income is roughly $1.5Mn.

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2024/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-247286.pdf

I suspect that even if they were tax-exempt, many lines would have still been unprofitable. CP lost its major Owen Sound Customer when the grain elevators switch to road. Maintaining 110 miles of track for one or two short trains per week made for an expensive rates. Hardly anybody ships less-than-carload ('loose freight') anymore. It's only profitable for high volume/high cost bulk commodities (grain, petro, chemicals,autos, lumber, etc.) over long distances.

Shortline operators have a bit of an advantage because of lower labour costs, but even they struggle. Collingwood gave up and Barrie still subsidizes its line.

So roads are heavily subsidized by all levels of government whilst CN/CP must pay for every km installed and then pay property taxes, in some cases on each spur line separately which is one reason they tend to rip up every siding they can in some areas. If they buy trucks, they don't have to pay for the line installation and taxes are limited to fuel taxes, business taxes (common to both methods) and the previously mentioned warehouse acreage. Is it any wonder that all those lines have been deemed unprofitable and ripped up. I suspect that building lines across the NWT would cost considerably more than 150,000 but your point is taken. We should be encouraging more rail

The cost of roads is spread out over their users/potential users; i.e. the taxpayer.

But they could still be in the interest of the national corporation.

They could, but no federal government since 1995 when CN was privatized has shown any interest in getting back into the business. If it was concerned about a national interest or national security, it might have intervened when rail service was removed from most military bases, or when it allowed CN and CP to abandon their Ottawa Valley routes in favour of all east-west traffic going through Toronto. In a few locations, the two lines are close enough to throw rocks at each other.

A rail line to the Arctic might be in the national interest, but it would be a huge money pit.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I'm not sure the taxation rate is or was a huge impact, at least in Ontario. It is obviously more complex than I am understanding, but Ontario taxes railways on a per-acre basis as opposed to some provinces that use a tonne-mile calculation.

For all of the rail infrastructure in the City of Toronto, its tax income is roughly $1.5Mn.

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2024/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-247286.pdf

I suspect that even if they were tax-exempt, many lines would have still been unprofitable. CP lost its major Owen Sound Customer when the grain elevators switch to road. Maintaining 110 miles of track for one or two short trains per week made for an expensive rates. Hardly anybody ships less-than-carload ('loose freight') anymore. It's only profitable for high volume/high cost bulk commodities (grain, petro, chemicals,autos, lumber, etc.) over long distances.

Shortline operators have a bit of an advantage because of lower labour costs, but even they struggle. Collingwood gave up and Barrie still subsidizes its line.


The cost of roads is spread out over their users/potential users; i.e. the taxpayer.


They could, but no federal government since 1995 when CN was privatized has shown any interest in getting back into the business. If it was concerned about a national interest or national security, it might have intervened when rail service was removed from most military bases, or when it allowed CN and CP to abandon their Ottawa Valley routes in favour of all east-west traffic going through Toronto. In a few locations, the two lines are close enough to throw rocks at each other.

A rail line to the Arctic might be in the national interest, but it would be a huge money pit.

Too big a country and not enough density of population outside Windsor-Montreal.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Had WAC Bennett finished the rail line to Dease Lake, then a whole series of mines would have been viable. That railbed is still there and the line could be extended into the Yukon and perhaps to the Alaskan Border and into Alaska.

 

[YZT580]

I'm not sure the taxation rate is or was a huge impact, at least in Ontario. It is obviously more complex than I am understanding, but Ontario taxes railways on a per-acre basis as opposed to some provinces that use a tonne-mile calculation.

just for info, it certainly was in Orangeville. The short line operator ripped up all the switch tracks except for one; parking their trains on the through-line during layovers. Eventually the cost of the taxes through Caledon caused the rates to exceed trucking rates even for full loads so as far as I know the line is closed.

 

[Maxman1]

Oh I know, I said I'd like an SMG, not a sten specifically haha.

MP5.

 

[PrairieFella]

MP5.

Give me an MP7 or give me death.

 

[KevinB]

Give me an MP7 or give me death.

The MP-7 is death, ask yourself if you would go into battle with a .17HMR chambered weapon, and then look at the 4.6x30mm cartridge...
It is decent enough to carry under a mandress and shoot someone in the face a bunch of times if you get burned, but not for anything that might evolve past 25m

 

[PrairieFella]

The MP-7 is death, ask yourself if you would go into battle with a .17HMR chambered weapon, and then look at the 4.6x30mm cartridge...
It is decent enough to carry under a mandress and shoot someone in the face a bunch of times if you get burned, but not for anything that might evolve past 25m

If it's past 25m I'm killing it with my actual weapon, my AFV. If that's not available, it's probably because I've already been BBQed. Mmmm...crispy.

 

[Maxman1]

I was staff on an advanced small arms course about a year ago, and the Warrant, who was a LAV commander in Afghanistan, told me this was his escalation of force:

• A rock
• Pen flare
• 9mm
• C7
• C6
• M203
• 25mm
• M777 fire mission
• F-15 air strike

 

[KevinB]

I was staff on an advanced small arms course about a year ago, and the Warrant, who was a LAV commander in Afghanistan, told me this was his escalation of force:

• A rock
• Pen flare
• 9mm
• C7
• C6
• M203
• 25mm
• M777 fire mission
• F-15 air strike

Pistol was way more effective than one's C8, as they are familiar with people being executed by pistols.
If it wasn't at lethal force yet, the act of pulling ones pistol was a very effective tool to get the point across.

 

[PrairieFella]

I was staff on an advanced small arms course about a year ago, and the Warrant, who was a LAV commander in Afghanistan, told me this was his escalation of force:

• A rock
• Pen flare
• 9mm
• C7
• C6
• M203
• 25mm
• M777 fire mission
• F-15 air strike

As an aside, I wish that was a course available to crewmen. I would love ASA and the skills learned would be super useful for all of the combat arms.

 

[KevinB]

As an aside, I wish that was a course available to crewmen. I would love ASA and the skills learned would be super useful for all of the combat arms.

T'is but a remuster away.