AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[The_Dictat]

Oh, yes... it would be able to support the fleet for a while until the canadianized Berlin-class are ready. It would be great for disaster relief. I am just worried about compatibility with our current systems and how much it would cost to canadianize.

Please, please, please...

 

[tomydoom]

Canada would be wise to snap this ship up, HMCS Vimy Ridge or HMCS Juno Beach perhaps?

How about the HMCS Battle of Groningen or HMCS Groningen, honour a major World War 2 victory by the Canadian Army, and being a Dutch city, a way to thank those good folks for cutting us a deal.

 

[Edward Campbell]

How about the HMCS Battle of Groningen or HMCS Groningen, honour a major World War 2 victory by the Canadian Army, and being a Dutch city, a way to thank those good folks for cutting us a deal.

How about some addresses The_Dictat's excellent point about the costs of making it Canadian; would it still be worth it?

 

[Underway]

Right off the bat the hotel services would need to have all their wiring changed.  Every plug, light bulb and beer machine would be a problem.  It is still built to NATO standard power so it shouldn't be to horrible (*subs cough cough).  I also don't know how far along they are with the build of it.  They certainly are not at the point where sensors and weapons go into it.  It was supposed to be commissioned in 2014 and usually a ship has to be able to move under her own power or a certain distance along before you commission. 

You could easily slap on cheaper sensors and weapons (as we are wont to do with such a ship).  But the sea basing capability is so attractive to the CF.  And then there are the political ramifications of such a move.  It could cause problems or be a benefit.  The Gov't might be able to sell it as a fix, getting something the navy wants/needs if you add it on top of current expenditures.  If it comes out of the JSS budget though huge political cost.

And as its capability is different than the Berlin Class it would have a use after those were built.

Also the cost will be around $600 million Canadian to purchase IMHO. 

*edit - additions to comments*

 

[Dissident]

Don't we usually turn in about half to a billion a year from our budget? Get all the paperwork ready then comes March 31st, just before year end, BOOM, new ship and we hit our target budget. Win-win. Long live March madness.

(I know, I know, it's not that easy, but one can dream.)

 

[Infanteer]

Just through it under the FPL.

 

[jollyjacktar]

In so many ways it makes good sense to obtain it, which is precisely why we won't.

 

[Kirkhill]

Keep all the gear exactly as is and find out how you like the Thales solution.

Wrt the power stock up on travel power adapters

Wrt the beer machines learn to appreciate Heineken

As for a name

Bergen op Zoom 

 

[Haletown]

Get the PM to say if only we  had the proper ships we could send humanitarian relief to the suffering children of Syria.

Then leak the story about the  availability of  the ship and let CBC beat up the government about buying it.

Then we could get it.

 

[mad dog 2020]

Could you just imagine this platforms capabilities for something like another Haiti instead of a 280 and a frigate. Seeing our more appropriate vessel was in for service.
Yes, I agree it would take the load off and allow another project to move to the front of the line!

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Get the PM to say if only we  had the proper ships we could send humanitarian relief to the suffering children of Syria.

Then leak the story about the  availability of  the ship and let CBC beat up the government about buying it.

Then we could get it.

You're hired! 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You could buy this one and then commission the yard here to build the 2nd one and do some final refit/conversions on the new one. The time to finish it would be good as it will allow the crew to work up to prepare for it. Even if it came with only the barest of navigational equipment and the other stuff fitted here. I'm sure we can duct tape on some 3"50's  ;D

 

[mad dog 2020]

I like this so much, I sent the article and picture to my MP.  We can't wait for the full meal deal of ships to be built as some will not survive or be too expensive to extend the shelf life?
This is like buying a new car. You make the move when the old one costs more to maintain than a car payment.
Also remember with those Action Plan Commercial: investing in double hulled tankers for the sake of the environment.
Start with right in your own fleet and practise what you preach!

 

[sunrayRnfldR]

There is however one drawback to the Karel Doorman-she is not reinforced for navigation in ice. Otherwise she would be a wonderful addition to the fleet and Canadian capabilities, particularly in the Caribbean, Africa, South-west Pacific and like waters. I would name her HMCS Walchern Island in memory of a difficult amphibious and land assault on that island in Holland late in World War II.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Right off the bat the hotel services would need to have all their wiring changed.  Every plug, light bulb and beer machine would be a problem.  It is still built to NATO standard power so it shouldn't be to horrible (*subs cough cough).  I also don't know how far along they are with the build of it.  They certainly are not at the point where sensors and weapons go into it.  It was supposed to be commissioned in 2014 and usually a ship has to be able to move under her own power or a certain distance along before you commission. 

You could easily slap on cheaper sensors and weapons (as we are wont to do with such a ship).  But the sea basing capability is so attractive to the CF.  And then there are the political ramifications of such a move.  It could cause problems or be a benefit.  The Gov't might be able to sell it as a fix, getting something the navy wants/needs if you add it on top of current expenditures.  If it comes out of the JSS budget though huge political cost.

And as its capability is different than the Berlin Class it would have a use after those were built.

Also the cost will be around $600 million Canadian to purchase IMHO. 

*edit - additions to comments*

As you are going from 240 to 110, I suspect it won't be that hard. Going the other way would be pricey

 

[Underway]

As you are going from 240 to 110, I suspect it won't be that hard. Going the other way would be pricey

Agreed, all ships run on NATO standard power, so much of the machinery and systems already are equivalent.  As I said its mostly the hotel services that need to be on Canadian power.  I really wonder how far along they are with instillation of the electrical and electronic systems.  Its cheaper and easier to just slap on your own stuff than to rip out and replace.  Wow getting this thing would be a dream.  Horizon 2050 specifically states that an amphibious ship of some sort is a future requirement due to the strategic impact that it provides.

Events like Haiti, US hurricanes, tsunami's, etc... seabasing capability for forces ashore anywhere for any event, Somalia deployment situations, special forces basing, avoiding GTS Katie repeats.  So much more can be done with this ship vice the Berlins. 

Even better the dutch use leopard tanks so we know this vessel can carry/fit them (probably the same leopards we bought off the dutch in the first place!).  Carrying Chinooks or the "commando" version of the cyclones (should they ever get built). 

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I am no big expert in Naval engineering, but I can't see wiring designed for 230 v. not be able to handle 115 v. All you have to do then is provide a small step down transformer just before each sub panel that services "hotel" functions, change that panel for a 115v. one and replace the various receptacles associated with it. Can't be that bad.

As for the rest: First, we already operate Thales equipment: The SMART-S that we are fitting on the HALs, not to mention the 501/502 radars on the IROs. Second, contrary to the Upholders, we would be getting a brand new ship - so no issue of rusted/degraded/seized/corroded parts from siting at the dock with improper precaution. Similarly, no issue here of fitting new torpedo tubes and associated combat system, which was a HUGE undertaking with the UK subs.

I would even say keep her after we get the Berlin's - especially if we only get two. The Karel Doorman is not a full AOR like the Berlin's, but she would be much better than nothing on a coast while one of the Berlin is unavailable. When both AOR's are available, then she could concentrate on the joint aspect of her function: train special forces or others in landing ops, provide support at sea for disaster relief, etc.

I am wiling to bet that after a short while, we would find her so damn useful that voices in Ottawa would clamour for acquiring one more, just like the ones heard right now for acquiring one more C-17.

 

[GAP]

230V carries less amperage for the same power usage as 115v. ergo...smaller diameter wire "can" be used. Probably isn't but that's the theory behind using a higher voltage.

 

[Underway]

I am no big expert in Naval engineering, but I can't see wiring designed for 230 v. not be able to handle 115 v. All you have to do then is provide a small step down transformer just before each sub panel that services "hotel" functions, change that panel for a 115v. one and replace the various receptacles associated with it. Can't be that bad.

As for the rest: First, we already operate Thales equipment: The SMART-S that we are fitting on the HALs, not to mention the 501/502 radars on the IROs. Second, contrary to the Upholders, we would be getting a brand new ship - so no issue of rusted/degraded/seized/corroded parts from siting at the dock with improper precaution. Similarly, no issue here of fitting new torpedo tubes and associated combat system, which was a HUGE undertaking with the UK subs.

I would even say keep her after we get the Berlin's - especially if we only get two. The Karel Doorman is not a full AOR like the Berlin's, but she would be much better than nothing on a coast while one of the Berlin is unavailable. When both AOR's are available, then she could concentrate on the joint aspect of her function: train special forces or others in landing ops, provide support at sea for disaster relief, etc.

I am wiling to bet that after a short while, we would find her so damn useful that voices in Ottawa would clamour for acquiring one more, just like the ones heard right now for acquiring one more C-17.

I completely agree with everything you said here.  The Karel Doorman would give the CAF a sealift, seabasing and logistics over the shore capability that we currently do not have and IMHO desperately need.  And it would back up the Berlins while they did their refits etc... as you stated.

 

[Infanteer]

It doesn't look like it can accommodate many troops, so its value as an amphib seems limited.  How about plunking ISOs down for temporary troop berths?