AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Ex-Dragoon]

Yup...but I will maintain that if we ever were to get an amphib the chances of GTS katie Part 2 will go down significantly.

 

[aesop081]

Maybe its time for a cost-effective solution involving a military/civilian mix. Something along the lines of the RFA maybe ?

 

[tabernac]

From a projected capabilities standpoint, the Dutch JSS seems to have more of what the Canadian JSS had in it's design. IE, embarked infantry force, C4I, and replenishment capabilities.

The Spanish JSS seems to be oriented towards humanitarian ops too much, and I don't think the CF wants or needs that.

carrying helicopters, hospital facilities, an embarked landing force, supplies, fuel and a suite of C4I facilities.

This is a double hull ship, capable of supplying fluids (oil, water, fuels) and solids (goods, weapons, ammunition, supplies, etc.) to a group of combat for support of Army and Navy operations. It also has capacity for support on fighting against the sea pollution, and a high hospital capacity, and therefore can be used on humanitarian operations and ecological disasters.

Edited for explaination

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Yup...but I will maintain that if we ever were to get an amphib the chances of GTS katie Part 2 will go down significantly.

I agree. If we ever get an amphib the chances of affording an expeditionary force to put on it go down significantly. At least with a used ro-ro we could afford its cargo.

The Katie was a freak incident. As long as the Canadian government owns the vessel and it's crewed by the same auxiliary service that also handles the Glen tugs and Quest, the chances of that happening are pretty slim.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I agree. If we ever get an amphib the chances of affording an expeditionary force to put on it go down significantly. At least with a used ro-ro we could afford its cargo.

come on now...We already own what we would be putting on to an amphib anyways. So explain to us how would we not be able to afford an expeditionary force.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Ex-D,

I love ya like a brother, but, I'm beginning to think that an LPD/LHA is not right for us for most of what we do, most of the time.  A CF owned RO-RO would get our stuff to where we need it in 90% of the cases.  The expense and complexity of a LPD/LHA may well scupper the AOR program.  And if the AORs don't go- nothing else matters.  The Navy (at least as an entity that can venture outside of our territorial waters) will die by 2015.  Full stop.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

come on now...We already own what we would be putting on to an amphib anyways. So explain to us how would we not be able to afford an expeditionary force.

Most of what we have isnt well suited for for amphib assault. On top of that, it's worn out from service in Afghanistan, and requires major rebuilds. Which don't appear to be in the capital program, and would compete for LHD funding.

Aside from that, SKT said it better than I could.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

SKT,
If a Ro-Ro is CF owned (which all was stated in the original post was civillian manned) and not chartered/leased what have you, then while its not as ideal as an LPD it is a better option then renting a ship.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Are the Glen tugs chartered or leased? I thought they were DND property.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Maybe its time for a cost-effective solution involving a military/civilian mix. Something along the lines of the RFA maybe ?

Or something similiar to what the USN has in practice.

 

[blacktriangle]

I'm not navy so forgive my ignorance, but why is there such a focus on an amphib when our destroyers are almost at the end of the line, same with the AORS, Frigates are mid life, submarines situation what it is etc etc...?

I really don't know if it should be a major priority for us since apparently we can't man what we have... I really have alot of respect for you navy guys and while I can buy my own chest rig and ruck, and be effective, you guys need to be properly equipped by the government with ships and systems to assert our sovriegnty and project power across the world. In my opinion, the LPD is going to take too much of the focus away from the navy's true purpose and yield only one or two ships that won't make a major difference to the way we operate.

Unless we get into a major world war situation, we should in theory have some forewarning of an operation to use to get a RO-RO chartered, and if it is a major war, I don't think the one LHD will do as much as a properly equipped and supported group of warships.

 

[FSTO]

Are the Glen tugs chartered or leased? I thought they were DND property.

They are DND property, manned by civilian aux crews.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Ok, thanks. I thought that was how it worked.

 

[gvg]

From the National Post.

Navy looks to Europe for ships
Dutch Meetings; 'Ridiculous,' say Canadian shipbuilders
David ********, Canwest News Service 
Published: Wednesday, August 06, 2008

With its plan to construct a new fleet of navy supply ships in disarray, the Defence Department has dispatched a retired admiral to the Netherlands to look at the possibility of building the vessels there.

Retired rear admiral Ian Mack was recently sent to Europe for discussions with a Dutch shipyard as the federal government considers various options to salvage the navy's $2.9-billion Joint Support Ship project.

But any move to have the work done overseas, cutting out Canadian jobs in the process, will be met with stiff opposition from the country's shipbuilding industry, warns Peter Cairns, president of the Ottawa-based Shipbuilding Association of Canada.

"The whole thing is ridiculous," said Mr. Cairns, who acknowledged he is worried nonetheless about the meetings the Defence Department has had in Europe.

He said the department has held at least two meetings with a Dutch shipyard, the latest involving Mr. Mack, an official from the office of Dan Ross, assistant deputy minister of materiel.

Any move by the Harper government to have the navy vessels built offshore would be a major change in policy and could significantly weaken domestic shipbuilding, according to defence industry officials.

The current government policy states that vessels acquired for the government must be built in Canada.

But Canadian industry officials are worried that some in the government want to change that. "I think there's a camp that wants to go offshore," Mr. Cairns said. "There's a group of people who don't see any benefit in investing in their own country."

This year, the federal government determined that proposals from two Canadian consortiums earmarked to build the new fleet were "noncompliant."

Defence officials were told the Joint Support Ship budget was not enough to build the three vessels envisioned and attempts to obtain more funding from the government have been unsuccessful.

A number of options on how to proceed will now be looked at by the government, including building ships in Europe. Other options would be to significantly reduce the scope of what the new ships could do, as well as reducing the number to be bought to two vessels.

The new vessels are to replace the navy's ageing supply ships, which are considered vital to supporting destroyers and frigates for long periods at sea. The current supply ships carry fuel and provisions for warships but the Defence Department wants the new vessels to carry army vehicles, a command centre and a small hospital, as well as other facilities to support ground troops on shore. There is no similar type of ship like it in the world as most navies use two types of vessels to do the two distinct roles.

The Conservatives used the Joint Support Ship project to kick off the equipment portion of its Canada First Defence Strategy in June, 2006, heralding the event as a new beginning for transforming the Canadian military for the future.

Jay Paxton, press secretary for Defence Minister Peter MacKay, said on complex procurement projects it is common for allies to meet and compare processes and lessons learned.

"Although the director-general of major project delivery land and sea was in Europe on other business, he had a chance to meet with government representatives from the Netherlands who are undertaking a similar project and they compared best practices in the context of an update on their project," Mr. Paxton said.

From a Dutch perspective the article is also quite interesting, because the Dutch MoD has told Parliament in the past that there was no other (NATO or EU) country that wanted a JSS and that collaboration with another country was therefore impossible, although at that time Canada was already busy with their JSS project.
I haven't read anything about this visit in Dutch newspapers though.

 

[canuck101]

the shipbuilding industry should not be worried there will still be plenty of work for them to do ie frigate upgrade, new destroyers, and the CG new new ships to be built too so I don't think they will go starving.


I found more information on the Dutch JSS program at this webpage:http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3A27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3Ae8664ce8-c638-4964-a960-5d8acf53c61f

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Personally I am hoping the Navy goes overseas for the next generation destroyer as well.

 

[Neill McKay]

Personally I am hoping the Navy goes overseas for the next generation destroyer as well.

Concern over the quality of Canadian work, or something else?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Seeing how the AORs and the 280s have come out of HSL I would not have them touch another naval vessel. I have never been a fan of their work and I have not seen anything good from then since I got in the Navy in 94.

 

[Haletown]

or maybe the discussions are to license the Dutch design and build it here, or build the hull and equip it here or ???

 

[geo]

From what I can gatehr, we do not have the marine architects to do the design work of what we are looking to build.
Do we give em (Cdn shipyards) the time to develop it all over again or do we go to people who have em and are using em for working plans?
Do we build here or go for broke and have em built overseas as well ???

I think we have waited too long and the pressing need for replacement ships make it necessary to have em built overseas - based on a proven design.