AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Ex-Dragoon]

From what I can gatehr, we do not have the marine architects to do the design work of what we are looking to build.
Do we give em (Cdn shipyards) the time to develop it all over again or do we go to people who have em and are using em for working plans?
Do we build here or go for broke and have em built overseas as well

I think we have waited too long and the pressing need for replacement ships make it necessary to have em built overseas - based on a proven design.

The Dutch JSS is not a proven design as its not even in the water yet....Granted they have had some good classes come down the slips over the past couple of decades but their JSS is still a conjectural design.

 

[Kirkhill]

From what I can gatehr, we do not have the marine architects to do the design work of what we are looking to build.
Do we give em (Cdn shipyards) the time to develop it all over again or do we go to people who have em and are using em for working plans?
Do we build here or go for broke and have em built overseas as well ???

I think we have waited too long and the pressing need for replacement ships make it necessary to have em built overseas - based on a proven design.

Further to geo's and Haletown's observations - even the Dutch don't build at home.  The have contracted out some of their shipbuilding to places like Romania.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/18459/post-168365/topicseen.html#msg168365

 

[gvg]

There's only one reason the Dutch don't build all their ships at home and that is: money.
The Damen Group (parent company of Royal Schelde, the builder of the naval vessels) owned Romanian yard can build the hulls cheaper.

But at times when the Royal Schelde is having it rough, Parliament demands all ships to be build in the Netherlands. At the moment Royal Schelde has more than enough work with the Dutch OPV's and Maroccan & Indonesian corvettes. But if times are slow again when the JSS has to be build, it will be build in the Netherlands.

All information on the Dutch JSS, besides the Ares article canuck101 mentioned, that I know of is in Dutch. But if anyone wants a couple of links, I can give them.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Building ships offshore is bad for the navy long term, although its attractive short term.

If the shipbuilding communities weren't lobbying Ottawa for the contracts, the navy just wouldn't get very many new ships. Its sad but true.

 

[geo]

drunksubmrnr...
If we were building ships in a more logical way.... a little bit at a time, all the time, then Canada would still have naval architects capable of designing the ships - we would have shipyards with the staff & equipment necessary to build our new ships.
The feast and famine way of doing business makes absolutely no sense at all - and Canada ends up paying for it, over and over again.

If our shipbuilding ducks were all lined up and ready - the Chicoutimi wouldn't be consigned to the drydock like an expensive paperweight.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

You're preaching to the choir on ship building.

I dunno what that has to do with the Chicoutimi though...Somehow I can't see SJSL building a better submarine than Barrow. Probably not a whole lot worse either, but not better.

 

[HalfmyLife]

Building ships offshore is bad for the navy long term, although its attractive short term.

If the shipbuilding communities weren't lobbying Ottawa for the contracts, the navy just wouldn't get very many new ships. Its sad but true.

How would this affect the long term exactly (In a naval sense, not an industrial one). In my thinking, gone are the day's when we could do an emergency build like in WWI WWII. If and when there is a major conflict, it will be fast, furious and over before you know it. Just throwing that out there to see what I get.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

How would this affect the long term exactly (In a naval sense, not an industrial one). In my thinking, gone are the day's when we could do an emergency build like in WWI WWII. If and when there is a major conflict, it will be fast, furious and over before you know it. Just throwing that out there to see what I get.

Long term, we're not going to get very many new ships if they aren't built in Canadian yards. One of the major drivers for actually getting funding for new ships is regional employment aka "pork".

There are also effects on refit and repair ability, but the major effect would be on numbers.

 

[viper3ca]

Here's an overhead shot of the new spanish AOR Canabria in the building process. 3 of these with 1 or 2 of there new LHD'S like the ones the Aussies are getting and we would be all set. 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The problem with getting all of these HVUs(High Value Units) is we still need the escorts/crew/aircraft for them. It doesn't do anyone any good if we cannot give the AORs/JSS/Amphib any sort of protection from surface, sub-surface and air threats.

 

[HalfmyLife]

Long term, we're not going to get very many new ships if they aren't built in Canadian yards. One of the major drivers for actually getting funding for new ships is regional employment aka "pork".

There are also effects on refit and repair ability, but the major effect would be on numbers.

Things we all know
280's approaching the end of there life
AOR at the end of there life
FFH - at mid life
SSK - Who really knows

Now the only plans in the works are JSS and the AOPS, While I admit that this is the perfect time to revitalize the Canadian shipbuilding industry and have it sustainable over the long term, it seems to me that the government and any future government are not really interested in spending the money to do so(current sit with JSS). So where does that leave the navy? They have to look at cheaper market's off shore, where they can afford more for less. In my view we would get more numbers. As for the quality, I don't know.

I know I have repeated some things already stated in this post but this is where my thought process goes

 

[canuck101]

Navy's support ship replacement program scuttled

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080822.wscuttle22/BNStory/National/home

The Canadian Press

August 22, 2008 at 11:53 PM EDT

OTTAWA — The Conservative government has quietly scuttled the navy's $2.9-billion project to replace its aging supply ships, saying bids from the shipbuilding industry were “significantly” higher than the money set aside for the program.

It has also cancelled a tender call for the purchase of 12 mid-shore patrol ships for the Coast Guard.

The decisions were announced in a statement issued at 8:30 Friday night by Public Works Minister Christian Paradis.

“These vessels are a key priority of the Government of Canada,” Mr. Paradis said in the release.

“However, the government must ensure that Canadian taxpayers receive the best value for their money.”

Both National Defence and the Fisheries and Oceans Department are considering “the next steps,” Mr. Paradis added.

But the decision to halt the Joint Support Ship project is a major blow to a navy that is already struggling to keep its existing 1960s vintage replenishment ships — HMCS Preserver and Protecteur — in the water.

The “tankers,” as they are known in the navy, are vital to keeping warships supplied with fuel, ammunition, spare parts and supplies during long overseas operations.

Both were expected to reach the end of their service life between 2010 and 2012, but Friday's decision means they will likely have to remain at sea longer.

No one at the Defence Department was available to comment late Friday night.

The program to acquire three new multi-role ships was announced in Halifax in June 2006 by former defence minister Gordon O'Connor. The announcement was heralded at the time as the beginning of a new era for the navy.

Almost right from the beginning the plan ran into trouble as designers tried to incorporate everything into the ships that naval planners had requested.

The ships were expected to function as re-supply vessels, cargo carriers for the army, a floating headquarters and possibly a hospital ship, depending upon the mission assigned.

Defence sources say the two consortiums that were bidding basically determined the ships could not be built for the amount of money the Conservative government had set aside.

Within the navy proposals were kicked around to cut the number of ships to two, but it was ultimately determined not to be practical from an operational point of view, said the sources who spoke on background.

The decision is also a blow to the coast guard.

Last year, Fisheries Minister Loyola Hearn announced $324-million had been aside for the purchase and maintenance of six new vessels for the coast guard fleet.

Among those plans was the purchase of 12 new mid-shore patrol vessels.

They were to be used primarily for fisheries conservation and protection duties in the Maritime, Quebec and Pacific regions.
But at least four of the ships were to be tasked for maritime security duties on the St. Lawrence Seaway-Great Lakes system

 

[Bigrex]

Yes, it'll be hard for all the Harper fanboys on these forums to brush this one aside. This was a major program that will affect the entire Navy's operational capabilities, and put sailors lives at risk, and just because it will cost too much.

To bad they spent all of that 14 billion dollar surplus or they could have paid for this. now they'll probably have to pay big bucks for canceling contracts (just like they got angry at the Libs for doing on the EH-101 contract) and will have to rob our pension funds again to pay for whatever, most likely used replenishment vessels, they decide to go with. Canada is the only major Country that intentionally goes out looking to buy other countries cast-offs to arm their military with.  All this makes me glad I'm an EX-sailor.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Ah a typical response....its ok that that the Liberals tried to make an unworkable jack of all trades ship and place it it on the Conservatives to make it work. How convient you forgot about that isn't it? Look through the posts here and you will find the majority of us "Harper fanboys" felt the design would not work. I am glad your gloating that the navy will be without AORs for another X number of years. I am sure you are real proud of yourself! :

 

[Snafu-Bar]

Well not one single side of parliament has gone out of thier way to move forward in our nations defences, nor it's ability to produce the tools that go along with it. Untill Ottawa can get it's collective act together we are as good as pants down and bent over.  :-[

We need one government, one plan, one nation unified and outfitted to succeed. 

Cheers.

 

[Kirkhill]

We need one government, one plan, one nation unified and outfitted to succeed. 

Zu Befehl.

 

[Monsoon]

Ex-D - Partisanship aside, this is pretty inexcusable. And you know as well as the rest of us that "the Liberals" didn't design JSS. The real test will be how quickly a plan B comes around. If there is no plan B, then this is just a desperate budgetary measure. Alternately, someone realized that a comparable ship could be bought from a foreign shipyard for much less. Only time will tell.

 

[FSTO]

Yes, it'll be hard for all the Harper fanboys on these forums to brush this one aside. This was a major program that will affect the entire Navy's operational capabilities, and put sailors lives at risk, and just because it will cost too much.

To bad they spent all of that 14 billion dollar surplus or they could have paid for this. now they'll probably have to pay big bucks for canceling contracts (just like they got angry at the Libs for doing on the EH-101 contract) and will have to rob our pension funds again to pay for whatever, most likely used replenishment vessels, they decide to go with. Canada is the only major Country that intentionally goes out looking to buy other countries cast-offs to arm their military with.  All this makes me glad I'm an EX-sailor.

No contracts were signed so there will be no cancellation fees. Although I support the idea of a dedicated AOR, I just hate the thought of all that work down the drain and having to start the procurement process from scratch. We know what we want, we know what we want it to do, lets go out and get a design and build the damn thing(s).

 

[The_Dictat]

It's a shame that the project is scuttled.  I understand one of the main reasons for it is the steep increase of metal cost which was not accurately forecasted when the project was launched.  I do not fault the government with the decision, it is a smart business decision.  They do not want to have the same problems that the US Navy is facing with its shipbuilding programs and the severe cost overruns. 

That being said, I just hope the work has already started to rescope the project towards dedicated AORs thus reducing the costs.  I am still unsure about getting LPD/LPH, that would be cool though.  I think supporting (with AORs) the Navy should come first and then buy a Ro/RO ship for transport.

The good news about this bad news is that the money can be diverted to accelerate the purchase of other equipment.  What would that be?

 

[Sub_Guy]

I am glad this one tanked, building an all in one ship was a crazy idea from the start.  We need dedicated AOR's, an AMPHIB capability would be cool, but we don't need cool! 

Hopefully there will be a plan "B" announced soon.