Apaches

[Infanteer]

19 + Airwolf.

 

[OldSolduer]

19 + Airwolf.

For sure!

Can we get Kiowas too?

 

[dapaterson]

19 + Airwolf.

Only if the Army gets Knight Rider as well.

 

[OldSolduer]

Only if the Army gets Knight Rider as well.

What does the Navy get?

 

[PuckChaser]

What does the Navy get?

The Red October.

 

[OldSolduer]

The Red October.

Well played sir!

I like that!

 

[alexanderpeterson]

Best thread ever  :rofl:

 

[Loachman]

The last few posts have been a huge improvement, at least.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I think it's pretty clear from those that know the military and government, that this fantasy is an absolute non starter. Canada's debt is now to the point where we can't even lease Sopwith Camels in any quantity. Never mind the training, spares, maintenance contracts and the possible stadup of a new squadron and it's facilities. The Canadian government, it seems at this time, has no interest at all in the CAF or their tribulations of rust out and obsolete and subpar equipment.

 

[tomahawk6]

typicalLiiberal government.

 

[NavyShooter]

The Red October.

Only if we can get Alec Baldwin and Sean Connery to steal it for us.

 

[George Wallace]

I think it's pretty clear from those that know the military and government, that this fantasy is an absolute non starter. Canada's debt is now to the point where we can't even lease Sopwith Camels in any quantity. Never mind the training, spares, maintenance contracts and the possible stadup of a new squadron and it's facilities. The Canadian government, it seems at this time, has no interest at all in the CAF or their tribulations of rust out and obsolete and subpar equipment.

This has been the Liberal Party of Canada's MO for six decades.

 

[Edward Campbell]

This has been the Liberal Party of Canada's MO for six decades.

In fairness, Prime Minister Harper threw the defence budget under the bus in 2012, but, also in fairness, only after all the admirals and generals persuaded MND Peter MacKay to outright disobey the PM's direction to cut real property and our already bloated C2 superstructure. (Did MacKay suffer, I wonder, from some form of 'Stockholm Syndrome' after being locked up in 101 Colonel By Drive with all the brass?) Equally, Brian Mulroney proposed a lot ~ even nuclear submarines ~ but offered no new money ... not after one had factored inflation into the equation.

It's not a uniquely Liberal issue. The fact, and I assert that it is a demonstrable fact, is that most (maybe 85%+) Canadians think governments already spend enough or too much on defence. (I can dig up the polling if someone insists, but, recently, last couple of years, I saw that support for increased defence spending was down at 10 to 15% ... just above support for more money for symphony orchestras and concert halls.) The notion of new ships, tanks and aircraft being just "toys for the boys" is well entrenched in Canadians' minds. Conservative and Liberals governments are just doing what their constituents demand ... which is a constant demand of many members of the ill informed political right wing.

So, if you want to know why we can't have new kit ...

    + Ask the admirals and generals why they thought they knew more than the prime minister; and

    + Ask the admirals and generals why they keep "low balling" costs: are they afraid of the real numbers or do they not understand basic accounting?

    + Ask your fiends and neighbours why they don't want a properly funded military ...

But don't blame politicians for doing what the people want ... that's dishonest.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Except that politicians don't do what the people want, once elected. They do what the party wants.

Broad, over the top, I know. However, I don't think I'm that wrong.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Except that politicians don't do what the people want, once elected. They do what the party wants.

Broad, over the top, I know. However, I don't think I'm that wrong.

We'll have to agree to disagree ... political parties have advanced the science of "market research" father, faster than the retail industry ever did. Political parties poll regularly and assiduously because their success is measured in votes ... you need to campaign and govern on a platform that people want, and, very, Very, VERY often what most people want is less or, at the very least, no more spending on symphony orchestras, opera halls and the military.

Now, I'm happy to agree that, in the case of the Liberal Party of Canada and the New Democrats, too, the party establishment is, for the most part, found amongst the so-called Laurentian Elites and they are, broadly and generally, anti-military or, at least, "for" peace and the UN and so on and believe that e.g. peacekeeping can be done safely and cheaply. But they, like the campaign teams, must fall into line with what the public wants ... and all that polling says that the public wants a cleaner environment and less carbon emissions and better treatment for First Nations and gender and racial equality right along with more, better jobs, more generous social programmes, better health care and lower taxes. The people, writ large, the voters don't care about their national defence until it is (almost) too late. The government ~ Conservative or Liberal ~ is only too happy to oblige because it already has too many difficult to impossible fiscal balls to juggle ...

   

Some governments, Paul Martin's and Stephen Harper's between 2004 and 2012 probably did care and probably did have ambitions to give Canada a better and maybe even bigger and better funded military but, even with Afghanistan, there were always too many other, often more politically important priorities ... absent a real big, costly (I mean casualty lists in the dozens or more every single day) war or a HUGE scandal defence will never climb to the top of the "importance" poll.

So, my old friend, politicians are doing what most people want, most of the time ... it's just that they, the people, almost never want what is important to you and me.

 

[Loch Sloy!]

The Griffins will need replacing sooner rather than later.

The USMC "rebuild" of their Hueys into UH-1Ys was a very clever procurement bait and switch that resulted in a really capable aircraft that they may not have got otherwise... given the Griffon lineage this might work for us too.

As a side benefit we might be able to sell the parts commonality with the AH-1Z to get 10 or 20 Cobras while we're at it. Not sure the Airforce would be interested in the above, but it sure would be comforting for us grunts if something like that came to pass.

 

[MarkOttawa]

As for Canadian govt's--all stripes--and defence procurement balls-ups over time and now, Kim Richard Nossal's Charlie Foxtrot: Fixing Defence Procurement in Canada is, er, bang-on (though he makes few historical errors about details).  Excerpt from a review:

...Ultimately, he attributes the cause of this mess to the Canadian “security imaginary,” that is, how Canadians’ view of their position in the world has led to their preference to spend miserly on defence as there are no attendant great national risks in so doing. For Nossal, this “imaginary” has two major effects: first, a highly permissive environment is created for Canadian politicians as voter indifference to defence issues is mirrored by an indifference to mismanagement of defence policy; and, second, a contradiction develops between the model of a military cabinet ministers might prefer and the one they are willing to fund...
https://cdainstitute.ca/book-review-no-10-roy-of-nossal-charlie-foxtrot-fixing-defence-procurement-in-canada/

More at Amazon.ca:
https://www.amazon.ca/Charlie-Foxtrot-Fixing-Defence-Procurement/dp/1459736753

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It is up to us the informed persons to educate people around us on the importance of defense and having a proper strategy for the replacement of major items. every voter we can educate is another small step in the right direction.

 

[Loachman]

The Griffins will need replacing sooner rather than later.

Why?

 

[suffolkowner]

Why?

Yeah I don't understand this either I know they're over 20 years old but that's pretty young for the Canadian Forces. Plus every other platform in the RCAF are probably older and in more dire need of replacement