Apaches

[Loachman]

The mid-range ones began arriving at 400 Squadron in the summer of 1996. I cannot remember when the first and last of the one hundred machines were delivered, but the average age is 22.

The first Sea King replacement programme began when? The Sea King replacement programme will end when?

There has not even been a hint of a Griffon replacement programme yet. So take the duration - or a best guess - of the whole, sorry, Sea King replacement misery and add about ten years.

One of my grandchildren may fly it, and he/she/it/whatever they'll call themselves by then isn't even born yet.

There will not be any upgrades, beyond those absolutely required to allow it to continue flying in controlled airspace. Nothing that increases performance.

 

[Good2Golf]

There has not even been a hint of a Griffon replacement programme yet. So take the duration - or a best guess - of the whole, sorry, Sea King replacement misery and add about ten years.

Actually the RCAF briefed the Tactical Reconnaissance and Utility Helicopter (TRUH) project at the CADSI Outlook Conferences a couple of weeks ago. TRUH would replace Griffin in the early 2030s.  Sounds like a long time, but 10-12 years for a project to deliver first articles is not unheard of.

:2c:

Regards
G2G

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

G2G: Your keyboard must be broken. Your "3" key is wiggly and generates "1"'s.

I am sure you meant "30-32 years", right 

 

[OldSolduer]

G2G: Your keyboard must be broken. Your "3" key is wiggly and generates "1"'s.

I am sure you meant "30-32 years", right 

The CAF struggled for 10 years to equip the soldiers with boots and even then messed it up

 

[dangerboy]

The CAF struggled for 10 years to equip the soldiers with boots and even then messed it up

You missed a zero there, we have been screwing up boots since WWI (and probably before that) https://canadaatwarblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/03/first-contingent-c-e-f-first-world-war-boots-purchase-scandal-aug-1914/

 

[Good2Golf]

G2G: Your keyboard must be broken. Your "3" key is wiggly and generates "1"'s.

I am sure you meant "30-32 years", right 

:rofl:

I sprinkled some Unicorn dust on it, that should fix it OGBD.  ;D

I've seen from 8 months to many decades to provide major capabilities, and a lot in between.  For TRUH, I figure early-2030s isn't bad, all things considered. :nod:

Cheers
G2G

 

[Loch Sloy!]

I was referring to this;

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/business-defence-acquisition-guide-2015/aerospace-systems-913.page

Replace Existing Systems


Objective

To acquire a replacement capability for the CH146 Griffon.

Requirements

The TRUH project must provide a replacement for the fleet of CH 146 Griffon helicopters with an Initial Operational Capability prior to 2030. TRUH must have the ability to transport a 3500lb load in excess of 100kms at a minimum cruise speed of 140kts. It must also be equipped with weapons for self-protection and EO/IR sensors to enable operational missions day or night.

Preliminary Estimate
•More than $1.5 billion

Anticipated Timeline
•2020 ◦Options Analysis

•2021 to 2025 ◦Definition Approval
◦Implementation Approval
◦Request for Proposal Release
◦Contract Award

•2026 to 2035 ◦Final Delivery

I'm well aware of the low (nil?) likelihood that the timeline above will actually be followed however the plan is in the works. There is staff work and money going into the project so who knows? The UH-1Z program for the USMC will be winding down in a few years, would be a pretty good time to leverage that into the TRUH program.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Why?

Because it would be the logical thing to do is to replace a piece equipment prior to it falling out of the sky on a regular basis and actually having some resale value, considering we could have the replacement 412EPI helicopters made right here in Canada and already in service with the CCG. We have a good idea of costs as well (156mil for 7). Order 10 a year, in a decade you have replaced all the Griffions, or 20 a year and do it in 5, You likely get 1-2 mil for each Griffon as well. I realize forward planning in procurement is not the Canadian way, but hey dare to dream. 

 

[jmt18325]

I think it's pretty clear from those that know the military and government, that this fantasy is an absolute non starter. Canada's debt is now to the point where we can't even lease Sopwith Camels in any quantity.

If by that you mean the lowest of any G7 country, sure.

 

[FSTO]

If by that you mean the lowest of any G7 country, sure.

Ah but JMT when it comes to Defence procurement its "We can't afford it! The cost, the cost!!"

Though when it comes to a favourite social program its "Debt and cost be damned! LETS DO IT!!!!!!"

 

[AirDet]

One idea to upgrade Griffons into a UH1Y Venom (Bell 412 Mirabel Hardware) installing Rocket Launchers for Hydra or equivalent and both automatic Gatling -

I agree that may be the easiest COA to sell to the politicians and public, but the Bell412 has a critical flaw. She's too slow. The Chinhooks had to slow down so the "escorts" could keep up in Afghanistan.

It may be easier to have any used AH we purchase refurbished and upgraded in Canada thus providing high tech jobs. We know that no matter what used helo we purchase it'll need to be modified. Use that as a selling feature to our political masters and the public.

 

[suffolkowner]

I agree that may be the easiest COA to sell to the politicians and public, but the Bell412 has a critical flaw. She's too slow. The Chinhooks had to slow down so the "escorts" could keep up in Afghanistan.

It may be easier to have any used AH we purchase refurbished and upgraded in Canada thus providing high tech jobs. We know that no matter what used helo we purchase it'll need to be modified. Use that as a selling feature to our political masters and the public.

In this hypothetical I'm guessing CH-146 get upgraded powertrains just like the UH-1N/Y's, although I'm guessing the government would prefer to stay with PWC engines.

Can Mirabel do this work? Can the 412 be turned into a UH-1Y? Or would it end up as a my grandfather's axe situation much like the UH-1Y or the LAV program?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Going by Wiki, the Chinook F is still faster than a Apache, from reports I read there is no helicopter in NATO that can keep up with a Chinook and flight scheduling had to be done to ensure the escorts arrived just before the Chinooks did in Afghanistan.

 

[Jarnhamar]

What about a weaponized chinook.

Swap the C6s with HMGs.  Maybe put some TOW missiles on it like the cobra has.  Auto cannon under the nose?
Fill the back with a gps jammer and cell phone spoofer.

 

[Loch Sloy!]

Can the 412 be turned into a UH-1Y? Or would it end up as a my grandfather's axe situation much like the UH-1Y or the LAV program?

I think that was exactly the point of the USMC approach. Similar to the Lav 6.0 it was sold as an upgrade to an existing platform when essentially it was (and now truly is- approval for new airframes has been given) an entirely new aircraft. They are quite a bit faster (only 11km/hr slower than a chinook) and more powerful than the old Hueys let alone a Griffon.

In a way this is a clever (albeit somewhat sneaky) approach to military procurement. We can learn a lot from the USMC; like them we are an underfunded force that needs to scrimp and economize.


The parts commonality with the Cobra makes that a more realistic (although still unlikely) prospect than buying Apaches.

 

[daftandbarmy]

What about a weaponized chinook.

Swap the C6s with HMGs.  Maybe put some TOW missiles on it like the cobra has.  Auto cannon under the nose?
Fill the back with a gps jammer and cell phone spoofer.

Although I'm in danger of thread jumping, if we really want a cost effective and flexible ground support platform in the face of a cost shy, pacifist oriented prevailing government culture, we should buy something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx58ig-dZSA

Call it a 'trainer with teeth'.

 

[garb811]

...

Call it a 'trainer with teeth'.

As a reminder of what our last, "Trainer with teeth," looked like.

Sorry for the further derail...

 

[alexanderpeterson]

It may be easier to have any used AH we purchase refurbished and upgraded in Canada thus providing high tech jobs. We know that no matter what used helo we purchase it'll need to be modified. Use that as a selling feature to our political masters and the public.

Another adept to the cause...I really think the cheapest way is for British Army to hand over their used old Apaches (name of the thread), us to upgraded them here (job, Jobs,Jobs)...use them at BATUS (deterrence) improving/creating our inter arms doctrine...leveraging their experience and logistics (cost)

 

[George Wallace]

I am curious, why you would want them to stationed at BATUS?

 

[daftandbarmy]

I am curious, why you would want them to stationed at BATUS?

I'm assuming that it's because the 'Limey LAD' is located there.