Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[JMCanada]

AFAIK Griffon is not navalized, as it lacks:
- landing gear ready for maritime ops.
- relevant corrosion protection coatings
- floating system in the rear sponsons
- foldable rotor

Instead, for a similar range and MTOW, i would suggest AW159 wildcat, which is already developed and can perform SAR (although within a limited space), ASW (including SENSO & Tactical officer), ASuW ... and can be an excellent escort. With additional fuel tanks may have an endurance over 4hrs. Just thinking on fuel cost  should be much cheaper to operate than cyclones . I do not mean to substitute cyclones, but would like  to have both options ... if possible.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I would think the Huey Venom would suffice.

 

[Czech_pivo]

AFAIK Griffon is not navalized, as it lacks:
- landing gear ready for maritime ops.
- relevant corrosion protection coatings
- floating system in the rear sponsons
- foldable rotor

Instead, for a similar range and MTOW, i would suggest AW159 wildcat, which is already developed and can perform SAR (although within a limited space), ASW (including SENSO & Tactical officer), ASuW ... and can be an excellent escort. With additional fuel tanks may have an endurance over 4hrs. Just thinking on fuel cost  should be much cheaper to operate than cyclones . I do not mean to substitute cyclones, but would like  to have both options ... if possible.

Why not buy another 5-7 Ch-149's and using them on the AOPS?  An extra cost for training or maintenance and can provide all the necessary requirements that the AOPS will need plus add in the SAR capabilities that are limited/strained in the Far North .

 

[Spencer100]

Or how about a few CH-148's?  They are in the system.  And being rebuilt to modern standards, plus the ex-president ones are still there.

Can the Ch-148 use the bear trap?  Is there a Bear trap on the Dewolf's?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Or how about a few CH-148's?  They are in the system.  And being rebuilt to modern standards, plus the ex-president ones are still there.

Can the Ch-148 use the bear trap?  Is there a Bear trap on the Dewolf's?

For clarity:

CH148 = Cyclone. Our current and only Maritime Helicopter.

CH149 = Cormorant. One of two SAR helicopter types used by Canada.

 

[Spencer100]

opps sorry CH-149 does it use the bear trap etc?

 

[Czech_pivo]

For clarity:

CH148 = Cyclone. Our current and only Maritime Helicopter.

CH149 = Cormorant. One of two SAR helicopter types used by Canada.

My question was regarding the Cormorants, as I would assume that they would be salt-water capable already.  I know that we are expanding the fleet already, just wondering if some of them could be used inter-changeable on the AOPS, (or even buy another 4-6)? 
I understand that we are going to be hard pressed to have enough CH-148's to go around once the 15 CSC's and the 2/3 JSS/AOR are in place.  I can't imagine the fleet spread across 6 AOPS, 15 CSC's and 2/3 JSS/AOR's.....

I know that the belief is that CCG helo's will be used on the AOPS for ice spotting and such, but do any of them have solid SAR capabilities? If we are going to stick the APOS's all the way up north, I would think that having them capable of solid SAR would be a plus once they are all the way up there.  I mean, let's be honest, taking into consideration the amount of time/money it will take an AOPS  to get from Esquimalt to Tuk, that once on station having a helo with excellent SAR would be beneficial?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

CCG had only one helo fitted with a winch, a Skiskorsy out of Prince rupert. None of the Bo105 had winches, one pilot resorted to using his skid to pluck a survivor from the water. Not sure of the capabilities of the new helo's. Part of the issue, is even if a winch is fitted, you need an trained crew to operate it and maintain that proficiency. The CCG was to cheap to go with IV training for it's Rescue Specialist, instead we used MAST pants much to the delight of the receiving ER rooms. 

 

[Stoker]

My question was regarding the Cormorants, as I would assume that they would be salt-water capable already.  I know that we are expanding the fleet already, just wondering if some of them could be used inter-changeable on the AOPS, (or even buy another 4-6)? 
I understand that we are going to be hard pressed to have enough CH-148's to go around once the 15 CSC's and the 2/3 JSS/AOR are in place.  I can't imagine the fleet spread across 6 AOPS, 15 CSC's and 2/3 JSS/AOR's.....

I know that the belief is that CCG helo's will be used on the AOPS for ice spotting and such, but do any of them have solid SAR capabilities? If we are going to stick the APOS's all the way up north, I would think that having them capable of solid SAR would be a plus once they are all the way up there.  I mean, let's be honest, taking into consideration the amount of time/money it will take an AOPS  to get from Esquimalt to Tuk, that once on station having a helo with excellent SAR would be beneficial?

No the CH-149 will not fit in the hanger of the AOPV as its longer at 74 ft, to the Cyclones 68ft. The Cyclone has to fold its tail to fit in the hanger while the CH-149 cannot. It is possible that the CH 149 may be able to land on the AOPS flight deck. The concept of ops for the class and the concept of ops with the CCG mentions AOPS could operate with the CH-146 Griffon and the Bell 429 and 412. It appears the type of helo embarked will depend on the type of mission, and CCG could ask for helo support and vice versa. The large carrying capability of the Cyclone could be very attractive to the CCG for supply runs. 

 

[Czech_pivo]

CCG had only one helo fitted with a winch, a Skiskorsy out of Prince rupert. None of the Bo105 had winches, one pilot resorted to using his skid to pluck a survivor from the water. Not sure of the capabilities of the new helo's. Part of the issue, is even if a winch is fitted, you need an trained crew to operate it and maintain that proficiency. The CCG was to cheap to go with IV training for it's Rescue Specialist, instead we used MAST pants much to the delight of the receiving ER rooms.

Are things really that bad? 
Is the idea that we'll use a CCG helo on an APOS only for ice spotting in the Arctic and have zero SAR ability while up there (other than a pair of eyes scanning the horizon).  If these ships are being built to operate in the Arctic for 3/4+ months of the year that they should have SAR ability with an onboard helo?

 

[Czech_pivo]

No the CH-149 will not fit in the hanger of the AOPV as its longer at 74 ft, to the Cyclones 68ft. The Cyclone has to fold its tail to fit in the hanger while the CH-149 cannot. It is possible that the CH 149 may be able to land on the AOPS flight deck. The concept of ops for the class and the concept of ops with the CCG mentions AOPS could operate with the CH-146 Griffon and the Bell 429 and 412. It appears the type of helo embarked will depend on the type of mission, and CCG could ask for helo support and vice versa. The large carrying capability of the Cyclone could be very attractive to the CCG for supply runs.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but couldn't we have built the APOS 2.0 - 2.3 meters longer to accommodate the CH-149 if need be?

 

[Stoker]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but couldn't we have built the APOS 2.0 - 2.3 meters longer to accommodate the CH-149 if need be?

I suppose they could have, causing millions of extra costs for something beyond its original concept of operations.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I suppose they could have, causing millions of extra costs for something beyond its original concept of operations.

I hear you. But it still begs the questions, if the CH-148's will never do any ASW work from the AOPS, then why even rotate them on/off the AOPS in the first place?  The CH-148's primary role when deployed on a Frigate is to be its 'eyes/ears' further out from the ship and to be a hunter/killer in times of war against subs.  If the AOPS will have nothing more than baby teeth in terms of weaponry, why bother putting a CH-148 on an AOPS at all.

Do any of the Griffon's have a winch on them to land on an APOS? 

If the role of the AOPS is to assert CDN sovereignty in the Arctic, then I'd argue that should include SAR abilities for its citizens in that patrol realm.  Thus, making it 2 meters longer to allow for a CH-149 to be accommodated would have been worth while.

But hey, I'm only a civilian with zero insight here and acknowledge this.

 

[Stoker]

I hear you. But it still begs the questions, if the CH-148's will never do any ASW work from the AOPS, then why even rotate them on/off the AOPS in the first place?  The CH-148's primary role when deployed on a Frigate is to be its 'eyes/ears' further out from the ship and to be a hunter/killer in times of war against subs.  If the AOPS will have nothing more than baby teeth in terms of weaponry, why bother putting a CH-148 on an AOPS at all.

Do any of the Griffon's have a winch on them to land on an APOS? 

If the role of the AOPS is to assert CDN sovereignty in the Arctic, then I'd argue that should include SAR abilities for its citizens in that patrol realm.  Thus, making it 2 meters longer to allow for a CH-149 to be accommodated would have been worth while.

But hey, I'm only a civilian with zero insight here and acknowledge this.

Probably because its the only shipboard helo that we operate, with a large cargo capacity and surveillance capability. Who knows down the road it may do anti sub.  When I say operate Griffon it may very well operate them while anchored and not all situations dictate using a haul down device. All RCN assets do SAR but not as its primary mission and you do realize we only have 14 CF 149's spread all across Canada, not many for AOPS eh?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The AOP's could be equipped with winch equipped Bell 429's which are the same helo's as the CCG recently received and are built in Canada. Run them with a civy crew of pilots and maintainers.

https://www.verticalmag.com/features/thegiftofsar/

https://www.verticalmag.com/features/better-faster-stronger-canadian-coast-guards-new-helicopter-fleet/

 

[Stoker]

The AOP's could be equipped with winch equipped Bell 429's which are the same helo's as the CCG recently received and are built in Canada. Run them with a civy crew of pilots and maintainers.

https://www.verticalmag.com/features/thegiftofsar/

https://www.verticalmag.com/features/better-faster-stronger-canadian-coast-guards-new-helicopter-fleet/

Yes as previously stated the Bell 429 may be a helo to be used on the AOPS, in fact lots of helo's could be used. The RCN has decided to utilize CCG and RCAF aircraft only. The last thing we need is civilians operating helos off AOPS, we might as well buy them and crew them ourselves.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

My question was regarding the Cormorants, as I would assume that they would be salt-water capable already.  I know that we are expanding the fleet already, just wondering if some of them could be used inter-changeable on the AOPS, (or even buy another 4-6)? 

Wouldn't any additional Cormorants be better used in the SAR fleet vice operating up north off an AOPS?? 

I understand that we are going to be hard pressed to have enough CH-148's to go around once the 15 CSC's and the 2/3 JSS/AOR are in place.  I can't imagine the fleet spread across 6 AOPS, 15 CSC's and 2/3 JSS/AOR's.....

While not every Cyclone will be at a line sqn 100% of the time, the west and east coast fleets also will not be sailing 100% of their hulls 100% of the time either.

I know that the belief is that CCG helo's will be used on the AOPS for ice spotting and such, but do any of them have solid SAR capabilities? If we are going to stick the APOS's all the way up north, I would think that having them capable of solid SAR would be a plus once they are all the way up there.  I mean, let's be honest, taking into consideration the amount of time/money it will take an AOPS  to get from Esquimalt to Tuk, that once on station having a helo with excellent SAR would be beneficial?

What are 'solid SAR capabilities'?  I've done maritime and overland SAR; never heard of 'solid SAR' before.  Some assets are very good at the SEARCH part but not good at the RESCUE and vice versa.  Sometimes it's the 'combo' that does the job, sometimes a single asset.  Very situation dependent. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I hear you. But it still begs the questions, if the CH-148's will never do any ASW work from the AOPS, then why even rotate them on/off the AOPS in the first place?  The CH-148's primary role when deployed on a Frigate is to be its 'eyes/ears' further out from the ship and to be a hunter/killer in times of war against subs.  If the AOPS will have nothing more than baby teeth in terms of weaponry, why bother putting a CH-148 on an AOPS at all.

Do any of the Griffon's have a winch on them to land on an APOS? 

If the role of the AOPS is to assert CDN sovereignty in the Arctic, then I'd argue that should include SAR abilities for its citizens in that patrol realm.  Thus, making it 2 meters longer to allow for a CH-149 to be accommodated would have been worth while.

But hey, I'm only a civilian with zero insight here and acknowledge this.

Simple answers  - (1) you do not need kill stores to complete an ASW mission.  You can complete the entire ASW mission set except the "drop torp" part.  When was the last time a sub had a warshot dropped on it??  I don't know the answer to that, but I can tell you that operational (real) ASW missions are and have been happening for decades....just not with warshots.  (2)  Maritime Helicopters do more than just ASW. 

"The Cyclone is to perform a variety of missions, including surveillance, utility, search-and-rescue, and tactical transport for national and international security efforts."

I can't get into ASW/ASuW tactics, etc here in any details, and I'm not a MH or Navy guy, but my opinion (coming from a fleet that does ASW/ASuW;  we work with and sometimes for the naval assets and MH folks)...there is/can be value in having a Cyclone on an AOPS without kill stores.  :2c:

Re: SAR.  What asset do you think takes over the rotary wing SAR tasking if the Cormorants are unserviceable, and therefore their crews do some SAR task training (stokes litters, hoisting, rescue swimmer, etc)?

 

[blacktriangle]

Simply having the airborne RADAR, ESM, and EO/IR capabilities that an Air Det would bring to the table should be a huge asset to an AOPS for the kind of missions it will undertake.

 

[suffolkowner]

No Cadillac helicopters for us! 25 years later and still dealing with that poor decision

As far as the CH-146's did the not fly off ships in Haiti? Do the US Marines not fly their UH-1's off ships?

I think that Sikorsky stated that they could replace the CH-149 fleet with s-92 for costs savings versus the Leonardo CH-149 upgrade which I believe is intended to bring some of the US Presidential helicopters on line. Leonardo dropped its lawsuit over FWSAR soon after(?)