Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[Stoker]

I don't discount what it can do, I just think it's incredibly stupid and short sighted not to give it some minimally competent armament and protection systems. I hope you are right and I am wrong, but judging by history, we will be sending these vessels into harms way, because we have nothing else at the time, place, moment.

That's great and you are entitled to think that way, other people with experience with these type of things think otherwise. I know to you a remotely operated 25mm, .50 Cals, small arms and potentially an armed helo doesn't cut it with you but talking to the sailors that actually are going to sail in this class don't seem to mind.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I’d rather a far more capable ELINT/ESM suite than more/bigger/better weapons. The ship is not fast enough to scrap with another warship or aircraft, but it’s got the makings of a good surveillance platform with some good endurance stats. Some fleet wide thickness in passive self defence systems might be in the near future, and that would be a good + useful thing as well. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That's great and you are entitled to think that way, other people with experience with these type of things think otherwise. I know to you a remotely operated 25mm, .50 Cals, small arms and potentially an armed helo doesn't cut it with you but talking to the sailors that actually are going to sail in this class don't seem to mind.

You mean like the Senior Officer that said publicly that we only need 1 AOR? I swear the CF suffers from abused spouse syndrome and will go to great lengths to justify inadequate measures put forward by their abusers.

 

[Stoker]

You mean like the Senior Officer that said publicly that we only need 1 AOR? I swear the CF suffers from abused spouse syndrome and will go to great lengths to justify inadequate measures put forward by their abusers.

I believe that senior officer said we need one interim AOR temporary and not a second interim as we currently have an interim AOR covering things off until the two JSS is built. I also believe the MND said the something to that effect.

On a separate note using something like abused spouse syndrome even as a joke to try and make your argument is pretty questionable : Yes everyone in the RCN is not as smart or as informed as you, you know best.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The AOPS doesn't really excite me all that much either Colin. 

Why?

"It's just not a warship"

I'm sure it will be used but it's not a warship.  I'll sail on one if told to but do we really need six-eight of these vessels?

CSC excites me, new AORs excite me, Submarines excite me, new capabilities like a land attack/strike capability excite me, Cyclones excite me. 

AOPS and MCDV are kind of like the TAPVs of the sea.  Sad when the Armoured Corps primary vehicle has less punching power than the Infantry.

 

[MARS]

The constabulary nature of what the AOPS are designed for has long been a discussion point in the RCN and on these boards.  E.R Campbell has often opined eloquently about whether these could and should be tasks of the RCMP, CCG, etc and the policy issues that complicate those proposals along with the strain that they currently impose on the small RCN fleets. 

The lack of excitement is particular acute in the RegF who are less accustomed (not unaccustomed, just less so than (former) NAVRES MCDV sailors like myself for whom these unexciting tasks have been our bread and butter for a generation or more.

SOVPATS, FISHPATS, SARPATS (less the execution an actual SAR response) are pretty unexciting, mundane stuff...that still needs to be done...by someone....today. The RCN is currently as well suited as any OGD to do them, by and large.  Nothing is as sexy as actual warfighting, but that doesn't make the other stuff unimportant. It simply makes it an often boring necessity. Is a requirement to conduct these types tasks eroding our ability to conduct warfighting at sea?  I guess that would be the important question and one that I do not personally have an answer to.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The AOPS doesn't really excite me all that much either Colin. 

Why?

"It's just not a warship"

I'm sure it will be used but it's not a warship.  I'll sail on one if told to but do we really need six-eight of these vessels?

CSC excites me, new AORs excite me, Submarines excite me, new capabilities like a land attack/strike capability excite me, Cyclones excite me. 

AOPS and MCDV are kind of like the TAPVs of the sea.  Sad when the Armoured Corps primary vehicle has less punching power than the Infantry.

If you’re the only ship that can access remote areas for the purpose of defending Canadian sovereignty, and have at least a couple of pistols on board, then you’re probably a war ship

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The constabulary nature of what the AOPS are designed for has long been a discussion point in the RCN and on these boards.  E.R Campbell has often opined eloquently about whether these could and should be tasks of the RCMP, CCG, etc and the policy issues that complicate those proposals along with the strain that they currently impose on the small RCN fleets. 

The lack of excitement is particular acute in the RegF who are less accustomed (not unaccustomed, just less so than (former) NAVRES MCDV sailors like myself for whom these unexciting tasks have been our bread and butter for a generation or more.

SOVPATS, FISHPATS, SARPATS (less the execution an actual SAR response) are pretty unexciting, mundane stuff...that still needs to be done...by someone....today. The RCN is currently as well suited as any OGD to do them, by and large.  Nothing is as sexy as actual warfighting, but that doesn't make the other stuff unimportant. It simply makes it an often boring necessity. Is a requirement to conduct these types tasks eroding our ability to conduct warfighting at sea?  I guess that would be the important question and one that I do not personally have an answer to.

It's a good point and I am not trying to denigrate the work sailors on MCDVs or anyone else does, I guess I'm echoing E.R. Campbell's point on why exactly the Navy is doing this?

My worry is this becomes the new norm and we see further erosion of the actual fighting fleet.  We are a warfighting organization, not a constabulary.  Who knows how many CSCs we will actually get, whether we will have submarines at all in ten years or whether we will even have AORs.  The government hasn't cut a contract yet on anything have they? 

 

[Navy_Pete]

I don't discount what it can do, I just think it's incredibly stupid and short sighted not to give it some minimally competent armament and protection systems. I hope you are right and I am wrong, but judging by history, we will be sending these vessels into harms way, because we have nothing else at the time, place, moment.

Lets be honest; if there was an actual shooting match in the Artic, it's probably subs doing it, and can't see how you could reconcile any competent sub hunting capabilities with basic icebreaking.  It's built with commercial rules and has no real weapons, so won't be seen as a target, and should be capable for the types of artic ops we need it to do.  Building them as warships and arming them would have massively increased the cost, and probably would have resulted in getting only two or three of a ship that isn't actually good at anything.

You need all kinds of tools in the tool box, and as long as people keep in mind that this is a non-combatant and employ it as such, not a big deal. It frees up the warships to stick to warship things, and if there is a specific threat, there are probably far more effective ways to deal with them than turn the AOPs into the equivalent of those 70+ piece multitools that are generally useless for anything other than a bottle opener.

 

[Stoker]

It's a good point and I am not trying to denigrate the work sailors on MCDVs or anyone else does, I guess I'm echoing E.R. Campbell's point on why exactly the Navy is doing this?

My worry is this becomes the new norm and we see further erosion of the actual fighting fleet.  We are a warfighting organization, not a constabulary.  Who knows how many CSCs we will actually get, whether we will have submarines at all in ten years or whether we will even have AORs.  The government hasn't cut a contract yet on anything have they?

We are what the government of Canada and the RCN tells us we are. We can certainly be a war fighting organization and we can be a constabulary force as well. It seems to work for other countries, why not us. Your statement on how many CSC's, JSS and submarines we may or may not have in the future is not based on any facts whatsoever. I firmly believe we will have 15 CSC and 2 JSS.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

We are what the government of Canada and the RCN tells us we are. We can certainly be a war fighting organization and we can be a constabulary force as well. It seems to work for other countries, why not us. Your statement on how many CSC's, JSS and submarines we may or may not have in the future is not based on any facts whatsoever. I firmly believe we will have 15 CSC and 2 JSS.

Until the money is committed and the contract is signed, we won't know.  We were supposed to have a Nuclear Submarine Force in the 1980s, what happened to that?  We were supposed to receive a Big Honking Ship in the mid 2000s and the CAF even created the Standing Contingency Force (SCF) to generate a Rapid Reaction Maritime capability, there are stickers on lockers at FDU(P) for the SCF and a certain Officer I used to work for was the CO of the SCF, what happened to that?  I do not believe we will receive 15 CSC, I think we will be lucky to receive 10.  If we do build any more than that, they will most likely be for other Navies i.e. Chile/NZ.  Like you though, I believe the AORs will be built. 

I agree with the rest of what you say, particularly that we are whatever the GoC tells us we are. 

Edit:  I'll add that the JSS originally started as more than a simple AOR and was supposed to be modelled similarly to the Dutch Rotterdam Class, It's come back to reality and is merely a simple AOR now.

 

[Stoker]

Until the money is committed and the contract is signed, we won't know.  We were supposed to have a Nuclear Submarine Force in the 1980s, what happened to that?  We were supposed to receive a Big Honking Ship in the mid 2000s and the CAF even created the Standing Contingency Force (SCF) to generate a Rapid Reaction Maritime capability, there are stickers on lockers at FDU(P) for the SCF and a certain Officer I used to work for was the CO of the SCF, what happened to that?  I do not believe we will receive 15 CSC, I think we will be lucky to receive 10.  If we do build any more than that, they will most likely be for other Navies i.e. Chile/NZ.  Like you though, I believe the AORs will be built. 

I agree with the rest of what you say, particularly that we are whatever the GoC tells us we are. 

Edit:  I'll add that the JSS originally started as more than a simple AOR and was supposed to be modelled similarly to the Dutch Rotterdam Class, It's come back to reality and is merely a simple AOR now.

The AOR's will be built from the simple fact all the big ticket purchases, engines, combat systems, RAS gear etc are ordered and the fact they are currently building them. If I had a dime for everyone who said AOPS would never be built or we will only be getting 5. I am confident we will be getting 15 CSC.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The AOR's will be built from the simple fact all the big ticket purchases, engines, combat systems, RAS gear etc are ordered and the fact they are currently building them. If I had a dime for everyone who said AOPS would never be built or we will only be getting 5. I am confident we will be getting 15 CSC.

Where did you read that the big ticket purchases have been ordered?  Seaspan has started cutting steel on the first one but nothing else has been done.  My understanding is it will just be certain steel pieces of the ship and no systems, etc itself.

This jives with the project page and the timeline, see here:

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/joint-support-ship.html

Project timeline:

4. Implementation
•Steel cut for first full ship: 2019
•Project approval implementation: spring 2020
•Contract award: spring 2020
•Steel cut for second ship: 2022 (under review)
•Launch of the first ship: 2022
•First delivery: 2023
•Initial operational capability: 2024
•Final delivery: 2024 (under review)
•Full operational capability: 2024 (under review)

So contract only to be awarded next year.  How are we purchasing combat systems, engines, etc without a contract?  Secondly the worrying thing for me with the AOR.  I note that anything to do with the second ship is "under review".  Here is an alternative COA:

1st JSS gets built, second one gets scrapped due to skyrocketing costs/pressures on OGD shipbuilding requirements i.e. OFSV & Icebreakers for Coast Guard.  Government of Canada chooses instead to buy Asterix from FFS which will serve as our second AOR because after all, we don't need any more than two AORs according to the GoC.

 

[Stoker]

Where did you read that the big ticket purchases have been ordered?  Seaspan has started cutting steel on the first one but nothing else has been done.  My understanding is it will just be certain steel pieces of the ship and no systems, etc itself.

This jives with the project page and the timeline, see here:

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/joint-support-ship.html

Project timeline:

So contract only to be awarded next year.  How are we purchasing combat systems, engines, etc without a contract?  Secondly the worrying thing for me with the AOR.  I note that anything to do with the second ship is "under review".  Here is an alternative COA:

1st JSS gets built, second one gets scrapped due to skyrocketing costs/pressures on OGD shipbuilding requirements i.e. OFSV & Icebreakers for Coast Guard.  Government of Canada chooses instead to buy Asterix from FFS which will serve as our second AOR because after all, we don't need any more than two AORs according to the GoC.

http://www.professionalmariner.com/Web-Bulletin-2019/MAN-to-provide-engines-for-Canadas-new-joint-support-ships-JSS/

https://www.seaspan.com/major-contract-awarded-work-joint-support-ships

https://www.seaspan.com/ontario-company-provide-steel-joint-support-ships

https://www.seaspan.com/major-contract-joint-support-ships-announced

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

http://www.professionalmariner.com/Web-Bulletin-2019/MAN-to-provide-engines-for-Canadas-new-joint-support-ships-JSS/

https://www.seaspan.com/major-contract-awarded-work-joint-support-ships

https://www.seaspan.com/ontario-company-provide-steel-joint-support-ships

https://www.seaspan.com/major-contract-joint-support-ships-announced

Thanks for the links, it could potentially support my COA I highlighted above though, particularly this bit:

Under this contract MAN will provide propulsion and power generation components for the JSS. This will include two MAN 12V32/44CR (common rail) propulsion engines equipped with environmental protection SCR technology, reduction gears, propulsion shafts, propellers, ship service diesel generator sets, and an emergency diesel generator set. Work on these components will take place in Europe at MAN’s established manufacturing facilities. Work taking place in Canada will include MAN providing the integration for these systems, training, testing, and support during the harbor acceptance trials and the sea acceptance trials.

The Berlin Class has two engines, we have ordered two engines.  That's enough parts for one ship, not two.  I fully believe we will receive the first AOR but I see no guarantee that we will receive a second ship. 

 

[Stoker]

Thanks for the links, it could potentially support my COA I highlighted above though, particularly this bit:

The Berlin Class has two engines, we have ordered two engines.  That's enough parts for one ship, not two.  I fully believe we will receive the first AOR but I see no guarantee that we will receive a second ship.

We're not going to build a orphan class of ships. Its going to take several years to build one, at some point the other equipment will be ordered. It makes no sense of deliver four engines and have 2 sit around for 4 years, that's how things are done.

 

[Underway]

Where did you read that the big ticket purchases have been ordered?  Seaspan has started cutting steel on the first one but nothing else has been done.  My understanding is it will just be certain steel pieces of the ship and no systems, etc itself.

This jives with the project page and the timeline, see here:

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/joint-support-ship.html

Project timeline:

So contract only to be awarded next year.  How are we purchasing combat systems, engines, etc without a contract?  Secondly the worrying thing for me with the AOR.  I note that anything to do with the second ship is "under review".  Here is an alternative COA:

1st JSS gets built, second one gets scrapped due to skyrocketing costs/pressures on OGD shipbuilding requirements i.e. OFSV & Icebreakers for Coast Guard.  Government of Canada chooses instead to buy Asterix from FFS which will serve as our second AOR because after all, we don't need any more than two AORs according to the GoC.

Chief Eng is referring to the long lead items that are ordered even before steel is cut because they rely on other companies to build before they are placed in the ship.  Engine insertion is hardly the last thing one does on a shipbuild.  I wouldn't trust the gov't of canada project website entirely.  It has all the pro/cons of big hand/small map and is often behind in timings.  I can also almost guarantee that the Asterix will not be kept in lieu of the 2nd JSS (or as those who work on the project call it the "War Tanker").  When one looks under the hood of the Asterix project there are plenty of issues that so far are glossed over by a favourable media/ public relations campaign.

I find it interesting that by and large the navy types are defending the AOPS as a valuable asset.  Perhaps it's because our experience is the many missions that have nothing and will never have anything to do with combat.  The AOPS is classified as a Non-Combatant (along with the MCDV's and JSS). We have Combatants (Frigates, Subs) to fight.  It doesn't need more weapons, because then it would need more crew to operate and maintain them, and then more cooks and food storage to feed them and then more crowded messdecks and before you know it we have the Bradley IFV  ;D. 

The RCN as a whole is pretty excited to get a crack at the new ships.  Partially because they are new, partially because they are like nothing we've ever had before, and partially because there are some very creative minds working on payloads to make them much more multifunctional.  Like the various towed arrays being developed as payloads (as constabulary/patrol includes under the sea as well as on it).  The creative juices are flowing on the OPS side as well, thinking about ways to employ them, as we've never had anything as flexible before.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Our main opponents have proved to be very adaptable at using a variety of methods and force. The AOPs may be the only platform in the area that can exert our will onto a intrusion within our declared lands and waters. It's good that we finally have a naval platform that can regularly operate in the Arctic, but it may be the only thing we have in that area when the time comes. The AOPs looks to be a very interesting platform, I want it to get more than enough equipment to succeed, rather than the typical barely enough. 

 

[Kirkhill]

It's a good point and I am not trying to denigrate the work sailors on MCDVs or anyone else does, I guess I'm echoing E.R. Campbell's point on why exactly the Navy is doing this?

My worry is this becomes the new norm and we see further erosion of the actual fighting fleet. We are a warfighting organization, not a constabulary.  Who knows how many CSCs we will actually get, whether we will have submarines at all in ten years or whether we will even have AORs.  The government hasn't cut a contract yet on anything have they?

This, in my opinion, is a false dichotomy.  The Forces exist to serve the government and the country.  As MARS said above - FISHPATs, SOVPATs etc all have to be done.  No doubt they are equally boring for the RCAF and for the RN.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/operations/united-kingdom/fishery-protection-squadron

FISHERY PROTECTION SQUADRON
UNITED KINGDOM
The mission of the Fishery Protection Squadron is to patrol the fishery limits of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, protecting the British fishing industry and safeguarding the nation’s maritime economy.

Why are we there?
It may not be the Royal Navy’s most glamorous job, but fishery protection is vitally important to our nation’s economy and international reputation.

The UK’s Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) is the fifth largest in the world. Extending 200 miles from the coast, the EEZ is the internationally agreed area in which the UK can use resources from the sea and sea bed – including fish. It’s the job of the Royal Navy’s Fishery Protection Squadron (FPS) to patrol the EEZ, preventing overfishing and plundering by foreign vessels, and enforcing fishing quotas.

Fishing rights have always been an emotive and politically sensitive issue – and in the wake of Brexit, fishery protection will be more important than ever.

What are we doing?
The Fishery Protection Squadron is the oldest front-line squadron in the Royal Navy. With a small headquarters staff based at Portsmouth Naval Base, the FPS is made up of four River-class offshore patrol vessels and one helicopter.

This small but dedicated team patrols 80,000 square miles of sea, upholding international law, treaties and agreements and protecting the UK’s precious fishing rights.

The Fishery Protection Squadron also has a secondary role in conducting inspections of all fishing vessels in UK waters and acting as an arbitrator between rival vessels when disputes arise. Their versatile offshore patrol vessels can also be used in maritime counter-terrorism, counter-drug surveillance, and pollution control.

OPV HMS Forth

2000 tonnes
90.5 m

1x 30 mm
2x GPMG
2x Miniguns

Merlin Capable flight deck

60 crew (20 on board at a time)
Space for 50 Royal Marines.

Not a whole lot different than the AOPS once the additional displacement due to the ice-strengthened hull is accommodated.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/our-organisation/the-fighting-arms/surface-fleet/patrol/river-class/hms-forth


Edit:  Apologies to Chief Engineer, Underway et al.  Posted before reading to the end of the thread.

 

[Stoker]

Our main opponents have proved to be very adaptable at using a variety of methods and force. The AOPs may be the only platform in the area that can exert our will onto a intrusion within our declared lands and waters. It's good that we finally have a naval platform that can regularly operate in the Arctic, but it may be the only thing we have in that area when the time comes. The AOPs looks to be a very interesting platform, I want it to get more than enough equipment to succeed, rather than the typical barely enough.

That's if you really think China or the Russians are going to come into our territory. If it ever did come to that, we would see the threat coming long before and dispatch appropriate assets. If its sub sea then unless we have our own ice capable submarines operating up there or a dedicated ASW asset either Aurora or ASW warship its not going to matter anyways. Even if the AOPS had a larger caliber gun or other armament, you would be complaining about something else.