Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS

[Good2Golf]

An unofficial position (although codified to varying extents in different Wardroom mess constitutions) held by a Sub-Lieutenant on board. Typically a senior NWO SLt, although some ships open up the position to engineering and log.

From a mess perspective, they help the SLt cadre speak as a unified group (with numbers that can sway many mess votes) and act as a liaison between the SLts and the other parties in the Wardroom. They typically also have control over a "Bull Sub Chit", which is a standing authority to spend a predetermined amount of mess funds per month for social events or the like (in reality often tightly controlled by the XO).

From a divisional perspective, if the Bull Sub is a senior NWO SLt they will often act as the Navigating Officer's 2IC/Adjutant/Enforcer/etc. to assign taskings, compile admin for the division, etc. In a FG ship with 10-15 NWO SLts it becomes an important role to allow the NavO to have time to complete their non-divisional duties.

I saw an SLt once with what looked like ‘antler’ over his 1-1/2 stripe on his NCD slip-ons, is that a visible identifier of the Bull Sub?

 

[Pelorus]

I saw an SLt once with what looked like ‘antler’ over his 1-1/2 stripe on his NCD slip-ons, is that a visible identifier of the Bull Sub?

Likely yes. A number of Wardrooms in the past have voted in $10-20 of mess funds at some point or another to get stylized slip-ons with bull horns embroidered over the Executive Curl, which get handed down from one bull-sub to another.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

An unofficial position (although codified to varying extents in different Wardroom mess constitutions) held by a Sub-Lieutenant on board. Typically a senior NWO SLt, although some ships open up the position to engineering and log.

From a mess perspective, they help the SLt cadre speak as a unified group (with numbers that can sway many mess votes) and act as a liaison between the SLts and the other parties in the Wardroom. They typically also have control over a "Bull Sub Chit", which is a standing authority to spend a predetermined amount of mess funds per month for social events or the like (in reality often tightly controlled by the XO).

From a divisional perspective, if the Bull Sub is a senior NWO SLt they will often act as the Navigating Officer's 2IC/Adjutant/Enforcer/etc. to assign taskings, compile admin for the division, etc. In a FG ship with 10-15 NWO SLts it becomes an important role to allow the NavO to have time to complete their non-divisional duties.

So, my WAG that it was some kind of...loud air horn...was way off mark.  8)  Thanks for the info!

 

[Good2Golf]

Likely yes. A number of Wardrooms in the past have voted in $10-20 of mess funds at some point or another to get stylized slip-ons with bull horns embroidered over the Executive Curl, which get handed down from one bull-sub to another.

Thanks.

It definitely looked more like a caribou antler, but it was STJ, so maybe the ‘bull’ is a bull caribou in remembrance of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment’s battle and terrible losses at Beaumont Hamel?

 

[Underway]

Thanks.

It definitely looked more like a caribou antler, but it was STJ, so maybe the ‘bull’ is a bull caribou in remembrance of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment’s battle and terrible losses at Beaumont Hamel?

Longhorn steer horns are common.  Full bull heads like the red bull logo has been sighted as well.  I suspect the STJ might have been antlers in honour of "Lucky" the moose, who's head presides over all wardroom events from his perch on the bulkhead.

 

[Underway]

Longhorn steer horns are common.  Full bull heads like the red bull logo has been sighted as well.  I suspect the STJ might have been antlers in honour of "Lucky" the moose, who's head presides over all wardroom events from his perch on the bulkhead.

So in the interests of accuracy "Lucky" is not a moose, as I was having a wet on STJ yesterday and realized that he was an elk/caribou, my mammal IDing skills apparently are weak (or perhaps its my memory).  So yes GtG was correct!

 

[Good2Golf]

So in the interests of accuracy "Lucky" is not a moose, as I was having a wet on STJ yesterday and realized that he was an elk/caribou, my mammal IDing skills apparently are weak (or perhaps its my memory).  So yes GtG was correct!

Whew!  I figured I had watched enough ‘Rocky and Bullwinkle’ as a kid that the antlers we’re less Bullwinkle, and more tails of a Canadian quarter. ;D

Thanks for the update, UW!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Actually the AOPs are getting the 35mm, might as well make them common to the fleet. MCDV, AOPS, CSC and JSS could all have them. Buy some training ones on wheeled trailer, you could have some light AA and training guns that could be taken to all the naval Reserve units and even strapped to the back of a CCG ship if needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M242_Bushmaster

 

[dimsum]

Actually the AOPs are getting the 35mm, might as well make them common to the fleet. MCDV, AOPS, CSC and JSS could all have them. Buy some training ones on wheeled trailer, you could have some light AA and training guns that could be taken to all the naval Reserve units and even strapped to the back of a CCG ship if needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M242_Bushmaster

The M242 is 25mm, not 35mm.  Wiki for AOPS says it'll be outfitted with the Mk38 Mod 2 (M242 on a naval mounting).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_DeWolf-class_offshore_patrol_vessel#Armament

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The M242 is 25mm, not 35mm.  Wiki for AOPS says it'll be outfitted with the Mk38 Mod 2 (M242 on a naval mounting).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_DeWolf-class_offshore_patrol_vessel#Armament

Sorry you are right, although it's depressing that we are basically going back to a fancy 20mm Oerlikon for a frigate displacement vessel.

 

[Good2Golf]

Sorry you are right, although it's depressing that we are basically going back to a fancy 20mm Oerlikon for a frigate displacement vessel.

I see what you did there referencing displacement vice role. :nod:

By ‘displacement math’, JSS should have 4 to 5 x 5”...

Regards
G2G

 

[dimsum]

By ‘displacement math’, JSS should have 4 to 5 x 5”...

I see no problem with this.    :nod:

But considering that our Canadian Patrol Frigates are double the displacement of a typical WWII-era destroyer, and that even small modern-day warships can pack a punch (e.g. Russian corvettes carrying Kalibr cruise missiles), displacement isn't the best factor to judge amount of needed armament anymore. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Armament selection for the AOPS/MCDV has everything to do about the budget and not about the potentiel need.

 

[Stoker]

Armament selection for the AOPS/MCDV has everything to do about the budget and not about the potentiel need.

I disagree.

 

[Spencer100]

Russians think different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_23550_patrol_ship

Very similar to the AOPS, Look and size. But with weapons.  Even SS missiles.

https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ivan-papanin-project-23550-class-arctic-patrol-vessels/

I can you tell the real reason the AOPS are "under" armed is so that the politicians and PPSC did not say look navy "you got new ships with pointy guns and missiles.  Why do you need very expensive frigates thingys?"  So I think that is the real reason.  Navy to Ottawa says "Looky here no pointy things" Not a warship!  We need a real warship." 

and

Also the AOPS were forced on the Navy by Harper who wanted "Armed Icebreakers."  So we end up with AOPS a light ice breaker with a little gun.  After the price tag was given on large armed icebreakers. So they can break some ice and are "armed" Good Job all round.  And wait there's more Irving you build them. Jobs for east coast. 

So in the end it was all about the budget.

Now I don't want to be negative. Navy and Gov will use these ships well for a long time.  I believe they will serve Canada well.  I also believe they in the end some or all six of the navy's AOPS will be transferred the CCG after sometime.

 

[dimsum]

Russians think different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_23550_patrol_ship

Very similar to the AOPS, Look and size. But with weapons.  Even SS missiles.

https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ivan-papanin-project-23550-class-arctic-patrol-vessels/

I can you tell the real reason the AOPS are "under" armed is so that the politicians and PPSC did not say look navy "you got new ships with pointy guns and missiles.  Why do you need very expensive frigates thingys?"  So I think that is the real reason.  Navy to Ottawa says "Looky here no pointy things" Not a warship!  We need a real warship." 

and

Also the AOPS were forced on the Navy by Harper who wanted "Armed Icebreakers."  So we end up with AOPS a light ice breaker with a little gun.  After the price tag was given on large armed icebreakers. So they can break some ice and are "armed" Good Job all round.  And wait there's more Irving you build them. Jobs for east coast. 

So in the end it was all about the budget.

Now I don't want to be negative. Navy and Gov will use these ships well for a long time.  I believe they will serve Canada well.  I also believe they in the end some or all six of the navy's AOPS will be transferred the CCG after sometime.

The Russians load weapons on anything that moves.  Look at their warships vice NATO ones. 

 

[Stoker]

Russians think different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_23550_patrol_ship

Very similar to the AOPS, Look and size. But with weapons.  Even SS missiles.

https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/ivan-papanin-project-23550-class-arctic-patrol-vessels/

I can you tell the real reason the AOPS are "under" armed is so that the politicians and PPSC did not say look navy "you got new ships with pointy guns and missiles.  Why do you need very expensive frigates thingys?"  So I think that is the real reason.  Navy to Ottawa says "Looky here no pointy things" Not a warship!  We need a real warship." 

and

Also the AOPS were forced on the Navy by Harper who wanted "Armed Icebreakers."  So we end up with AOPS a light ice breaker with a little gun.  After the price tag was given on large armed icebreakers. So they can break some ice and are "armed" Good Job all round.  And wait there's more Irving you build them. Jobs for east coast. 

So in the end it was all about the budget.

Now I don't want to be negative. Navy and Gov will use these ships well for a long time.  I believe they will serve Canada well.  I also believe they in the end some or all six of the navy's AOPS will be transferred the CCG after sometime.

The Russians can't afford to build those ships just yet.

https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/security/2018/03/russian-navys-arctic-patrol-vessels-suffer-delays-3-4-years


We could of easily armed these ships using the 76mm from the 280's, lots of shells and expertise but simply there was no need. The versatility of these ships will keep these platforms RCN for a long, long time.

 

[Stoker]

The need will likely come far faster than we can rearm the ships. The one thing Canada does very well is to fail at correctly predicting the military needs and likely conflicts. Hell even the Brits with their experience and resources failed to prepare for the Falklands, Had the Arges waited a bit long the RN would have had even less resources.

Seeing the Chinese and Russians under your bed again Colin?

 

[Stoker]

At the risk of misremembering history, the French knew for a fact that Germany was going to invade again and there are only so many ways to do it by land - hence the Maginot Line. 

We all know how that turned out.

Some people are so fixated on what the APOV has or not have for armament, that they forget its not a CPF and totally discount what it can actually do.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I don't discount what it can do, I just think it's incredibly stupid and short sighted not to give it some minimally competent armament and protection systems. I hope you are right and I am wrong, but judging by history, we will be sending these vessels into harms way, because we have nothing else at the time, place, moment.