Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit

[daftandbarmy]

Why do you constantly assume the fit guy is always less competent?

For the same reason blondes are supposed to be dumber?

 

[BinRat55]

...If you're getting too large a portion, advise your Food Svcs O...

Too large WHAT? Advise who? Whoa dere whoa dere...

There's also a salad bar......

Last I checked, profanity and incoherent statements were not allowed on this board. That's it. Say it again and I am reporting you...

I will now adjourn for steak.

 

[Lumber]

Why do you constantly assume the fit guy is always less competent? In my experience fitter people tend to be more competent not less so.

I'm not, quite the opposite, I'm saying that being fit does not imply that you are more competent. To me this seems obvious, but I have seen first hand more fit people being treated more favourably at work based on their fitness level, without taking into account their actual level of competency.

Here's another Navy anecdote. I'm also a Ship's Team Diver, was a member of the ship's dive team for 4 years, and led it for 2 years. Anyone who has ever interacted with military divers, whether Combat Divers or Clearance Divers, knows that they are coo-coo for coco-puffs for fitness. Now, as ship's dive team, we're not so coo-coo, so I had a mixed bag of super-fit, average-fit, and minimum-fit divers. Who, in relation to their fitness level, do you think was the best diver on my team? Well, it was actually the least fit member of my team (remember, diver's don't have a separate fitness standard, all they need is the FORCE test). She was the last one to finish on a run and couldn't climb a ladder in full diving gear, but every time I put her in the water, I knew that she would be calm, collected, focused and able to safely perform whatever task I needed her to do. My biggest cluster-f**k was actually one of my most fit divers. Every time he went in the water, you could almost guarantee he'd spend 15 second flapping on the surface until he realized he hadn't released enough ballast, he's get tangled in his lines, and he'd go forward when you wanted him to go aft. I would rather my whole dive team was super fit, because diving is a physically demanding job, but their fitness levels did not in any way determine (or indicate) how competent they were underwater.

 

[Lumber]

I wanted to add to this, as it couldn't be more spot on. Why is there a belief that if we go back to 2 per points for exemption, that it will result in the wrong people being promoted. The slobs aren't all stars at their jobs, and the fit people are not all plugs. If the unfit person is truly as good as people believe, write them up so that they are competitive at the board. If the fit individual is being promoted, it's likely because he is both fit and good at his job. 2 points isn't a big enough advantage to disregard the bulk of the rest of the points he earned by being good at his particular trade.

Realistic, I don't think it will result in a measurable frequency of the "wrong" people getting promoted. When two people of equal competency are being compared, then fitness level is a completely fair metric (among others) to use to differentiate between the cream of the crop. The people who are being sifted over at the merit board are all (or should be) very competent , so there shouldn't be any injustice. There is just the small possibility of someone with a lower performance score getting an overall better score because of his fitness level, and I'm simply of the mind that you shouldn't even be comparing him to others of higher competence. (it would be such a slim margin between them though, that I agree this shouldn't, in practice, occur)

Also, I feel that the other metrics are good enough (if not better) and that we don't need to use fitness level.

 

[dapaterson]

Much of this conversation ignores the elephant in the room: the bastardized performance assessment system where calling someone "Ready" for promotion is the kiss of death, so scores are grossly inflated across the board.  That, in turn, means seemingly minor changes to the other parts of scoring (such as fitness) will have disproportionate effect.  Board cutoffs are sometimes measured in fractions of points; one or two extra points for being a gym rat could be extremely significant.

 

[BinRat55]

I don't know how this fits, or even IF it fits here by a little story (true story):

Back in the early 90s, there was me and another Pte. Shortly after him being posted in to us, he was "recruited" for lack of a better term to play CISM Soccer. That young Pte travelled quite a bit over the next two years - Poland, Italy, Denmark, USA... I did a s*** ton of field time. He and I were promoted to Cpl together (accelerated by 6 months) We went our separate ways but kept in touch. Right after the promotion to Cpl, he began playing CISM Volleyball during the winter months. His 25 year career to date has him with zero operational tours, a dozen PER exemptions and about 25 mins in the trade (that one I exaggerated for effect!)

The result: He is an MWO with 5 medals on his chest. Amazing guy, very healthy - a guy you would want to run into you if you were anywhere in the world in trouble. Knows nothing of his trade - lucky to spell "Supply".

I think my point here might be to leave the "being fit" part out of the PER. I am a broken old Sr NCO who can't run the length of himself (medically related) but I guarantee you - I can out-supply anyone (well, maybe not Vern but I could give her a run for her money!) An honest, un-inflated assessment on a PER it all we need. If I can pepper pot or run in a jungle lane then there are other avenues for "inspiration"...

 

[armyvern]

I don't know how this fits, or even IF it fits here by a little story (true story):

Back in the early 90s, there was me and another Pte. Shortly after him being posted in to us, he was "recruited" for lack of a better term to play CISM Soccer. That young Pte travelled quite a bit over the next two years - Poland, Italy, Denmark, USA... I did a s*** ton of field time. He and I were promoted to Cpl together (accelerated by 6 months) We went our separate ways but kept in touch. Right after the promotion to Cpl, he began playing CISM Volleyball during the winter months. His 25 year career to date has him with zero operational tours, a dozen PER exemptions and about 25 mins in the trade (that one I exaggerated for effect!)

The result: He is an MWO with 5 medals on his chest. Amazing guy, very healthy - a guy you would want to run into you if you were anywhere in the world in trouble. Knows nothing of his trade - lucky to spell "Supply".

I think my point here might be to leave the "being fit" part out of the PER. I am a broken old Sr NCO who can't run the length of himself (medically related) but I guarantee you - I can out-supply anyone (well, maybe not Vern but I could give her a run for her money!) An honest, un-inflated assessment on a PER it all we need. If I can pepper pot or run in a jungle lane then there are other avenues for "inspiration"...

That guy.  :

At least our section mates on the Hockey team were nice enough to bring us pizza and beer back to the field after their daily "practices" and games.  Funny that the swim team never had practices or meets during Exercises.  Damn ... we don't even have swim teams any more.

 

[daftandbarmy]

  Damn ... we don't even have swim teams any more.

Which means we should implement the swim test too as part of the FORCE program, right?

 

[armyvern]

Which means we should implement the swim test too as part of the FORCE program, right?

I shudder to think.  It would have to be "who sinks slowest" to get the platinum (judging by some of the fine skills that I've seen while life guarding the Military swim test)!!

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Actually, back to a swim test would not be such a bad idea for the Navy:

If you had to do, every year or second year, the old "basic" test of jumping in the pool in coveralls, thread water for 10 minutes then swim to the end of the pool and back (about 40 meters) and hoist yourself - all by yourself - in the life-raft, I am willing to bet you would see a lot more sailors going out to exercise a lot more.

You may shoot first, Lumber.  :knights:

 

[Lumber]

Actually, back to a swim test would not be such a bad idea for the Navy:

If you had to do, every year or second year, the old "basic" test of jumping in the pool in coveralls, thread water for 10 minutes then swim to the end of the pool and back (about 40 meters) and hoist yourself - all by yourself - in the life-raft, I am willing to bet you would see a lot more sailors going out to exercise a lot more.

You may shoot first, Lumber.  :knights:

No rebuttal here; I've been playing water polo on-and-off for the past 8 years and I personally think it is the single best for of physical exercise. It's more strenuous than anything else out there, and doesn't effect your joints! Perfect for all the army guys complaining of bad knees and lower backs.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Perfect for all the army guys complaining of bad knees and lower backs.

No more worries about that anymore!  The new pants come with foam knee pads, aka "PER improvement kit, basic, replaceable"  ;D

 

[daftandbarmy]

Actually, back to a swim test would not be such a bad idea for the Navy:

If you had to do, every year or second year, the old "basic" test of jumping in the pool in coveralls, thread water for 10 minutes then swim to the end of the pool and back (about 40 meters) and hoist yourself - all by yourself - in the life-raft, I am willing to bet you would see a lot more sailors going out to exercise a lot more.

You may shoot first, Lumber.  :knights:

I explained this test to a colleague who used to swim in the 'almost Canadian Olympic Team' category.

He deadpanned me and said: "I guess the military is putting a lot of faith in their unsinkable ships then, right?".

 

[OldSolduer]

I see a lot of complaints about pop machines, sweet desserts in hatbox meals etc.

You don't have to eat that stuff. No one is forcing you to buy pop etc. That's a choice.

Education is key. And it doesn't happen overnight.

And if you're running out of hatbox meals, then either you aren't serving correctly or you have not ordered enough rations.

 

[Loachman]

No more worries about that anymore!  The new pants come with foam knee pads, aka "PER improvement kit, basic, replaceable"

And they do wonders for one's posture when not so employed, obviously.

 

[CountDC]

Actually, back to a swim test would not be such a bad idea for the Navy:

If you had to do, every year or second year, the old "basic" test of jumping in the pool in coveralls, thread water for 10 minutes then swim to the end of the pool and back (about 40 meters) and hoist yourself - all by yourself - in the life-raft, I am willing to bet you would see a lot more sailors going out to exercise a lot more.

You may shoot first, Lumber.  :knights:

10 minutes?  Damn, frozen popsicle by then.    Best just to stay on the ship rather than waste all that energy for nothing.  I heard fat floats better than muscle but don't quote me on that - thinking that may be a bos'ns excuse.

 

[SupersonicMax]

10 minutes?  Damn, frozen popsicle by then.    Best just to stay on the ship rather than waste all that energy for nothing.  I heard fat floats better than muscle but don't quote me on that - thinking that may be a bos'ns excuse.

I had to do the US Navy Swim Phys (which, amongst other things like the helo dunker) consists of swimming 100m in full flight gear with the lofe preserver deflated (flying suit, flight boots, g-pants, harness, life preserver, helmet, gloves), thread water for 10 minutes and inflate the life preserver orally (ie: no CO2 cartridge).

It was probably the most difficult physical test I have taken and probably the most relevant to what I do.

 

[PuckChaser]

I had to do the US Navy Swim Phys (which, amongst other things like the helo dunker) consists of swimming 100m in full flight gear with the lofe preserver deflated (flying suit, flight boots, g-pants, harness, life preserver, helmet, gloves), thread water for 10 minutes and inflate the life preserver orally (ie: no CO2 cartridge).

It was probably the most difficult physical test I have taken and probably the most relevant to what I do.

25m into that swim I would have drowned. That's why I joined the Army. I have the buoyancy of a rock holding a lead chain.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

25m into that swim I would have drowned. That's why I joined the Army. I have the buoyancy of a rock holding a lead chain.

We can always use one more anchor  ;D

 

[PuckChaser]

We can always use one more anchor  ;D

I guess we all have a role to play in the defense of Canada.  8)