Armoured Officer vs Air Combat (Pilot)

[airdelta2]

Good post. I got a question: since most combat arms officers have a lot in common - is there a similar skillset required for both air combat and armoured officer positions? Obviously they are both very different career paths but are there any similarities amongst them (other than solid leadership ability/ability to work under pressure)?

 

[George Wallace]

Good post. I got a question: since most combat arms officers have a lot in common - is there a similar skillset required for both air combat and armoured officer positions? Obviously they are both very different career paths but are there any similarities amongst them (other than solid leadership ability/ability to work under pressure)?

I'm curious as to what similarities you see in the two?  One is in a high speed three dimensional battle space, and the other is in a very much slower (Compared to aerial combat) almost two dimensional battle space.  One controls his/her personal wpns platform, the other commands their crew served wpns platform and several others and communicates with a large number of peers, superiors, subordinates, and other organizations to coordinate their movements while the other is directed by one 'controller' onto a target.

 

[airdelta2]

Like I said they are different career paths...but they both deal with carrying out tactical missions objectives so that may require a specific type of skillset (generally) that is specialized to their trade. The OP gave some examples that can apply to almost all officer positions...leadership, being able to think quick and act fast in a combat scenario, etc.

Yeah, the reasons you give are some very true differences between the two. I want to know if there are general skillsets that must be learned for officers who have to engage in weapons control/deployment (be it MARS, air combat or amoured) - skillsets that are general 'on paper' but are expanded upon/also specialized for each occupation.

 

[George Wallace]

One steers an aircraft at high speed, while the other directs a driver to drive in one direction, a gunner to turn the turret in another direction, directs other C/S to move and fire over a radio, and supervises the Loader and Gunner as to what type of ammo to load and fire at a wide variety of targets at varying ranges, all while navigating with a map and keeping their superior informed as to what they are doing.

One may have to work in a NBC State for long periods of time, while the other is usually very distantly removed by time and space from any such dangers. 

One can actually get up close and see the colour of his/her enemy's eyes, the other gets a fleeting glimpse of a tiny object from great heights.

 

[George Wallace]

Like I said they are different career paths...but they both deal with carrying out tactical missions objectives so that may require a specific type of skillset (generally) that is specialized to their trade. The OP gave some examples that can apply to almost all officer positions...leadership, being able to think quick and act fast in a combat scenario, etc.

Yeah, the reasons you give are some very true differences between the two. I want to know if there are general skillsets that must be learned for officers who have to engage in weapons control/deployment (be it MARS, air combat or amoured) - skillsets that are general 'on paper' but are expanded upon/also specialized for each occupation.

An Armour (any Cbt Arms Officer - Land) commands troops and vehicles.  A Pilot flys a plane.  One commands, the other 'drives'.

 

[Journeyman]

I would suggest that the commentary by airdelta2, while potentially intriguing, will merely serve to detract from a thread designed to answer some basic questions by potential Armour officers, and should be pruned.

 

[George Wallace]

I might add that an Armour Officer (any Cbt Arms officer - Land) may call in Fast Air support, but it is highly unlikely that Fast Air will call in Armour support, to save their necks.

 

[airdelta2]

Sure move it to another thread, the Armoured post should be about Armoured.

 

[George Wallace]

Sure move it to another thread, the Armoured post should be about Armoured.

Right!

You wanted to compare "similarity in skill sets" BETWEEN Armour officers and 'pilots'.  Definitely not an Armour only subject.

Other than Armour officers and pilots both being officers, there are very few similarities.  Fast Air has a single individual managing their personal space in a very three dimensional battle space.  Armour officers command crews and Troops, and must be very good at multi-tasking, often doing several things at once.  Pilots less so. 

 

[Old Sweat]

Not being either, I am on shakey ground here. However, both are combatants and both are required to maintain situational awareness, continually assess the threat and take decsive action to defeat that threat before it can harm them or their comrades in the battle field/battle space. Both must also be completely familar with the characteristics of their vehicle/aircraft and its weapons and those of their enemy and use this knowledge to gain the advantage.

That is all very nice, and those are big hand, little map principles. In practice I submit there are few similarities other than that they both bleed red.

 

[aesop081]

  One commands, the other 'drives'.

George,

I assure you that the aircraft captain i currently fly with commands and not just drives. He is also the crew commander and the crew is much larger than that of any tank out there. He is responsible for the actions of the entire crew and responsible for the mission. This goes well beyond just "steering" the aircraft.

 

[George Wallace]

George,

I assure you that the aircraft captain i currently fly with commands and not just drives. He is also the crew commander and the crew is much larger than that of any tank out there. He is responsible for the actions of the entire crew and responsible for the mission. This goes well beyond just "steering" the aircraft.

CDN Aviator

I was trying to steer clear of your Field, and stick with Fast Air, as the OP was honing in on Air Combat.  Your Field involves close crew teamwork, a lot of hunting skills, after a ground/sea based foe again on a much more multi-dimensional battle space than Land forces.  Again a whole different group of skillsets between the two.

 

[George Wallace]

OK.  Just to put this into perspective.  An Armour officer, at his worse (or his finest) moment, has to be very good at multitasking.  When he is CONTACT, his adrenaline is definitely reaching its peak.  He is telling his driver which direction to go at the same time he is giving Fire Orders to his Gunner (and Loader), supervising them as his turret is turning in a direction not always the same as the hull.  He is reading his map to get an accurate grid for his CONTACT, and listening to two, sometimes three, radio nets while sending a CONTACT Report on one net and orders to his Troop on another and orders to his crew on the IC.  He is maintaining SA with his contact and using his knowledge of the use of low ground to navigate safely.  He may even have to call in support from Artillery or Fast Air, using the appropriate formats and frequencies.

 

[airdelta2]

I didn't want to make another thread but I do have a different question:

What is the process like for becoming an Armour Officer? You apply with you degree (assuming DEO for my case) - you take the CFAT (and score high enough for all officer trades) - and after that what happens? Is it straight to your medical/interviews or is there another 'test' like ACSO/PILOT (ACSO TESTS/CAPPS)? Or if you are qualified for armour after the CFAT/Medical/Interview(s) is it straight to Officer training and then Armoured Officer specific training?

Anyone in armour know? Thanks.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

I didn't want to make another thread but I do have a different question:

What is the process like for becoming an Armour Officer? You apply with you degree (assuming DEO for my case) - you take the CFAT (and score high enough for all officer trades) - and after that what happens? Is it straight to your medical/interviews or is there another 'test' like ACSO/PILOT (ACSO TESTS/CAPPS)? Or if you are qualified for armour after the CFAT/Medical/Interview(s) is it straight to Officer training and then Armoured Officer specific training?

Anyone in armour know? Thanks.

I am not in recruiting, but there is no pre-selection phase for Armour. There was a combat arms selection phase of some kind in distant memory where prospective candidates went to Gagetown for a week or so but that has not occured in many years.

If you want Armour then the CFAT, interview and medical are the big ones. If you get selected you will take basic officer training with all CF officers and then the Common Army Phase (CAP) with all Army officers. If you get by that you go to the Armour School for the Armoured Reconnaissance Troop Leader Course that is broken down into two phases. DP (Developmental Period) 1.1 covers crew commanding while DP 1.2 covers troop leading. Each phase takes roughly a summer to complete and they are quite challenging. Many do not pass the training and are either released or find another branch more suited totheir talents.

A DEO should plan on roughly two years in the training system before getting to his regiment assuming all goes well.

Best of luck!

 

[airdelta2]

Thanks for the reply. Well I have another year to decide if Armour is right for me. I will be applying next April when I am about to finish my undergraduate degree. I heard you get 3 choices career wise before you write the CFAT.

Right now I am going to be looking (in-depth) into: ACSO, Armour, Pilot, MARS. Those are the trades that interest me career wise (but I have to look into what the job entails/look beyond the surface before I can pick which are right for me). I've looked into the aviation side of things and I will be taking some private flying lessons to see if I would enjoy/be suited for pilot. I have to study the same math aptitude stuff for ACSO and MARS so its no big deal testing wise (if I didn't qualify for one and had to be tested for the other).
Armour is definitely in my top 3 choices.

Are most armoured officers deployed often (afghanistan, etc)? Do armoured officers ever have to leave the vehicle and fight as infantry?

 

[Rogo]

Not to dissuade you from applying pilot nor am I any expert but...everyone and their mother applies for pilot when it comes to officer trades. Be prepared for any result because they have to my understanding, a very large pool of applicants for that specific trade and many less openings.  From my understanding MARS and most cbt arms are fairly open within officer cirlces.



GW or JM please let me know if this is innacurate, merely passing on what i hear from the rumour mill.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Thanks for the reply. Well I have another year to decide if Armour is right for me. I will be applying next April when I am about to finish my undergraduate degree. I heard you get 3 choices career wise before you write the CFAT.

Are most armoured officers deployed often (afghanistan, etc)? Do armoured officers ever have to leave the vehicle and fight as infantry?

Follow your gut and go with the trade that appeals to you that you qualify for.

Regarding armoured officers and deployments I would say that they deploy in similar proportions to their infantry and artillery counter-parts. It is not guaranteed that an armoured subbie will deploy in his first regimental tour, but many have over the past few years.

An armoured officer needs to be able to employ small arms and be able to work outside his vehicle, but it is not "fighting as infantry." An armoured officer spends the CAP course with other army officers learning dismounted section tactics, but his real business is done from the turret.

Cheers

 

[George Wallace]

Not to dissuade you from applying pilot nor am I any expert but...everyone and their mother applies for pilot when it comes to officer trades. Be prepared for any result because they have to my understanding, a very large pool of applicants for that specific trade and many less openings.  From my understanding MARS and most cbt arms are fairly open within officer cirlces.



GW or JM please let me know if this is innacurate, merely passing on what i hear from the rumour mill.

All are very competitive.  As a kid I lived in Moose Jaw and Pilot training have a very high washout rate, perhaps as high as ninety per cent.  What it is today, many years later, is a good question.  MARS has always been very tough on its candidates, also seeing very high washout rates.  Combat Arms officers face the same, perhaps a little less stress, as the others.  In the Seventies, Cbt Arms saw up to fifty per cent failure rates in Phase III and Phase IV.  In the Eighties, there were courses that had one hundred per cent pass rates.  These stats are cyclical and will change as different factors change; ie. enrolment numbers, demand for a Trade, Force Reductions, Force Increases, etc.

It, therefore, is very important that you are actually picking a Trade that you will enjoy doing for a long period of time.  All Trades will have different demands on you, physically, mentally, and socially.

 

[Good2Golf]

It, therefore, is very important that you are actually picking a Trade that you will enjoy doing for a long period of time.  All Trades will have different demands on you, physically, mentally, and socially.

This!  :nod:

All classifications are challenging in their own right.  Multitasking is a pretty common theme throughout.    It's important to ensure that you are motivated and interested in whatever direction you decide to pursue.

Regards
G2G