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Army Reserve Restructuring

Yes.

Of course you do. So it’s a perk then that an employer gives time off for military service? Just do we are clear on your worldview. One you see no value in?
For the Nth time, I will stipulate that every public dollar spent benefits someone. The things we could do that would provide some value, somewhere, if resources were infinite, is itself an almost boundless set. It's a discussion of no interest. What is of interest is maximizing efficient use of what we have. 5 days' funded time off for what has been outlined (or what can be reasonably be done) is money better spent elsewhere.

Maybe only anti-military types care right now. 30 seconds of evening TV can change that. "Well, you see how we had to close the emergency department here again. And instead of more health care funding for provinces and universities, the federal government wants to give PS workers 5 days' paid leave to play soldier." Whether that's an accurate formulation won't matter. The government will immediately be in the position of explaining, which means they'll be losing.

I'm skeptical the burden of running the training can even be met, so I expect this to die anyways.
 
And yet you don’t understand the net benefit of paid time off for military service. Or refuse to see it.

I didn’t just “play soldier” doing it either. I’ve used LWOP, vacation and LWP depending on my circumstances.

I can’t help you unfortunately if you have decided it has no net benefit.

Fortunately those things won’t be going away anytime soon.
 
They called ir SSEP when we did it.

All boys age 16 - 17.

We were members of the Service Battalion.
Yeah. I went through in 66 as part of the SSEP (student summer employment program) I had joined in August 65 and had been working with my artillery regiment as a gun number of three live fire exercises before I took my recruit course :giggle:. I went RegF in 69 and in the summer of 1971 3 RCHA was kept in Wainwright after the brigade WainCon, to run the thing for some 600 kids. By then it was called student youth employment program (SYEP) but was basically the same six week recruit course I did years earlier. My SSEP was all male, about the size of a large platoon and all made up of folks from the various units in the Moss Park Armoury. I presume there were other serials in other armouries. The SYEP we ran in 71, OTOH, had females, not many, but some. If I recall correctly it was called SYEP 5a and I understood that there was also supposed to be a 5b that was for a follow on year and taught basic Jnr NCO leadership. I never saw that course myself. Our 600 SYEP folks came from all over western Canada and was made up of a broad mix of many regiments and branches.

Good times.

🍻
 
And yet you don’t understand the net benefit of paid time off for military service. Or refuse to see it.
I'm unconvinced it's a "net benefit". Fundamentally, what we have is a movement of time use from higher-valued to lower-valued. I would have individuals who volunteer to serve pay the cost (by using vacation time) so that employers (and ultimately customers and taxpayers) aren't paying the cost. Trying to argue "net benefit" is difficult to impossible and isn't really the tack to take.

Big picture, I'm also unconvinced the cost of the Res F has been worth what it has provided in Reg F augmentation for the past 40 years, going back to and beyond the old "flyover" billets for fall ex in Germany. I've heard the "invaluable, critical" assessments all through FRY and Afghanistan, but I doubt any of the assessors were thinking in terms of Bastiat's seen/unseen. One of the alternatives to the funded, not-very-employable Res F we have is a more-funded Reg F. And then would the Res F still be needed for anything short of "total war"?

I've always been emotionally sympathetic to the "net benefit" view, but not intellectually. I've not seen anyone crunch numbers to "prove" these propositions one way or the other. But the high-to-low value use of time is undeniable.

Military leave provisions in law for everyone might be a necessary component of re-working the Res F to be more valuable. That can be true, and it can also be true that it's a net cost. As I perpetually write, mobilization of resources is inefficient. Make the case for the necessity, but mostly* don't try to argue that any costs are saved.

*The significant exceptional principle: a military force that successfully deters conflict is cheaper than one that does not.
 
I'm unconvinced it's a "net benefit". Fundamentally, what we have is a movement of time use from higher-valued to lower-valued. I would have individuals who volunteer to serve pay the cost (by using vacation time) so that employers (and ultimately customers and taxpayers) aren't paying the cost. Trying to argue "net benefit" is difficult to impossible and isn't really the tack to take.

Big picture, I'm also unconvinced the cost of the Res F has been worth what it has provided in Reg F augmentation for the past 40 years, going back to and beyond the old "flyover" billets for fall ex in Germany. I've heard the "invaluable, critical" assessments all through FRY and Afghanistan, but I doubt any of the assessors were thinking in terms of Bastiat's seen/unseen. One of the alternatives to the funded, not-very-employable Res F we have is a more-funded Reg F. And then would the Res F still be needed for anything short of "total war"?

I've always been emotionally sympathetic to the "net benefit" view, but not intellectually. I've not seen anyone crunch numbers to "prove" these propositions one way or the other. But the high-to-low value use of time is undeniable.

Military leave provisions in law for everyone might be a necessary component of re-working the Res F to be more valuable. That can be true, and it can also be true that it's a net cost. As I perpetually write, mobilization of resources is inefficient. Make the case for the necessity, but mostly* don't try to argue that any costs are saved.

*The significant exceptional principle: a military force that successfully deters conflict is cheaper than one that does not.
Cheers Brad. I disagree. And glad that that is not the prevailing attitude currently at play.
 
Yeah. I went through in 66 as part of the SSEP (student summer employment program) I had joined in August 65 and had been working with my artillery regiment as a gun number of three live fire exercises before I took my recruit course :giggle:. I went RegF in 69 and in the summer of 1971 3 RCHA was kept in Wainwright after the brigade WainCon, to run the thing for some 600 kids. By then it was called student youth employment program (SYEP) but was basically the same six week recruit course I did years earlier. My SSEP was all male, about the size of a large platoon and all made up of folks from the various units in the Moss Park Armoury. I presume there were other serials in other armouries. The SYEP we ran in 71, OTOH, had females, not many, but some. If I recall correctly it was called SYEP 5a and I understood that there was also supposed to be a 5b that was for a follow on year and taught basic Jnr NCO leadership. I never saw that course myself. Our 600 SYEP folks came from all over western Canada and was made up of a broad mix of many regiments and branches.

Good times.

🍻

A very successful model that only was viewed as such in retrospect because, as I recall, at the time it was panned as a 'waste of time social experiment'.

The CAF got alot of good people out of that experiment. I even bump into civilians from time to time who participated and remain very proud of their service.
 
I'm unconvinced it's a "net benefit". Fundamentally, what we have is a movement of time use from higher-valued to lower-valued. I would have individuals who volunteer to serve pay the cost (by using vacation time) so that employers (and ultimately customers and taxpayers) aren't paying the cost. Trying to argue "net benefit" is difficult to impossible and isn't really the tack to take.

Big picture, I'm also unconvinced the cost of the Res F has been worth what it has provided in Reg F augmentation for the past 40 years, going back to and beyond the old "flyover" billets for fall ex in Germany. I've heard the "invaluable, critical" assessments all through FRY and Afghanistan, but I doubt any of the assessors were thinking in terms of Bastiat's seen/unseen. One of the alternatives to the funded, not-very-employable Res F we have is a more-funded Reg F. And then would the Res F still be needed for anything short of "total war"?

I've always been emotionally sympathetic to the "net benefit" view, but not intellectually. I've not seen anyone crunch numbers to "prove" these propositions one way or the other. But the high-to-low value use of time is undeniable.

Military leave provisions in law for everyone might be a necessary component of re-working the Res F to be more valuable. That can be true, and it can also be true that it's a net cost. As I perpetually write, mobilization of resources is inefficient. Make the case for the necessity, but mostly* don't try to argue that any costs are saved.

*The significant exceptional principle: a military force that successfully deters conflict is cheaper than one that does not.
Brad

I basically agree with what you are saying re net value but that is because of what the reserve force and in particular the ARes has been pigeonholed into becoming.

No reserve structure has a day-to-day net value. It's simply sunk costs accepted on the basis that the full-time force you need is too expensive to be at a scale that you'd like to have. So you create a stand-by force that can be called up when eventually needed. It's identical to an insurance policy which has zero net value year-to-year unless your in an accident or have a fire.

The art is what coverage you buy, or, in the case of a reserve force, how you structure it.

The core model is mobilization. The only real value the RegF has seen in the reserves over the years is Class Bs in cubicles, and small, basically low ranked Class C individuals to round out deployed units when the RegF was getting worn out by continuous operational deployments. In both cases you are bringing people in on a long term basis for full-time employment. It would be more efficient to just hire more full-timers on short term contracts for that.

The idea that you need a large Class A pool in order to generate sufficient Class B and Class C volunteers for the office and operational use is simply a fallacy and the result of an improper structure. The size of the Class A force should be determined by the size of a force that you expect to mobilize on a compulsory basis, if and when needed.

It's almost trite to say that those Class As need to be properly trained and equipped for mobilization or else you are throwing away much of the benefit of the investment made in your insurance policy over the years. An undertrained and underequipped reserve force is the equivalent of paying for an insurance policy with no flood coverage on a house sitting in a flood zone.

I've worked on or sat on the periphery of several attempts to restructure the reserves. Most of those failed because they ignored the concept for mobilization and the associated training and equipment costs and instead focused on a cheap way to enable "what can the reserves do for us today" tasks. Some because the RegF doesn't want to do them, others because the RegF isn't authorized enough PYs to do them, others because there is a shortfall of RegF personnel blocking authorized positions but unable to do the job (for a variety of reasons) and some because the RegF can't recruit and train full-time people fast enough to do the job.

No costs are saved with that concept. It's just a weak attempt to recuperate some benefits to fix spot problems within the overarching RegF structure and employment model. Take for example 6 month rotations. What could possibly be more destructive and a waste of resources than that? Especially in a peacetime scenario. Postings or longer rotations are much more efficient for the force as a whole if all that mattered were costs or use of resources.

What got me started on this reply was the statement "I'm also unconvinced the cost of the Res F has been worth what it has provided in Reg F augmentation for the past 40 years." My view is simply that there isn't enough regular force augmentation (or of a consistent quality) or of regular force leadership to have an impact on the reserve force as a whole. This half hearted commitment of full-time support (which by legal definition means RegF) and no equipment of significance is exactly why the reserve force is of such poor general quality that it is. The current model has been a well-observed failure for much more than 40 years.

So what are the solutions? Take the battalion's worth of RegF out of the reserve structure and create a 4th PPCLI? Or double down and provide the equipment, training and the full-time leadership and administrative structure to make it effective? I'm personally on the side of the latter and to me that entails fixing more than RegF participation but also the many underlying structural problems with reserve force service. That's where I have a problem with the army's current transformation model. The vast number of issues wrong with reserve service are not at the army level but the CAF/DND level - employer legislation is but one example. I'm of the view that fixing RegF terms of service are also needed. There are what - 4,000? - Class Bs in the system. If that doesn't indicate a need for a RegF class of service which doesn't require moving but still requires operational tours then I don't know what does. - Again, not something the army can fix.

🍻
 
No reserve structure has a day-to-day net value. It's simply sunk costs accepted on the basis that the full-time force you need is too expensive to be at a scale that you'd like to have.
Exactly. The military force of a non-aggressor nation is a cost. But, whatever we pay for sufficient deterrence costs less than war. That's the profit.
So what are the solutions?
The ones which lead to the kind of Res F you and a few others here propose. Absolutely not the Res F we have. And I part company with this idea of a low-status rolodex below Supp. Mostly it'll give the PS an excuse to argue for a few PY's of expansion to cover the lost "leave time" and maybe give the government a credit for a bit more towards %-of-GDP spending. Almost nothing for practical readiness, though.
 
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