Army Reserve Restructuring

[MilEME09]

Yes but my point is if we wish to increase the size of the CAF it makes sense to try and attract people to join.

If part of attracting people is reflecting their cultural identity then isn’t that a easy price to pay?

Take the Sikhs for example, there is around 1 million in Canada. They have a martial tradition and it is a respected profession for them. Yet we don’t have a huge Sikh population in the CAF. Could a Sikh inspired regiment help change that?

Alternatively being told they have to join the insert ‘Highland Regiment’ if they wish to join the Reserves might turn them away. Much like how if they had a Highland regiment where I am it would attract me (as it reflects my heritage).

I think there are better ways to attract people in certain cultures then a cop out ethnic regiment. Sikh's for example have a proud history of military service, and it is seen as very honorable in their culture. We just need to make it as an option, and there are very inexpensive ways to increase visibility too, example lets get the media at every medal Ceremony at Rideau hall, instead of just releasing CANFORGEN's, lets actually get stories out there for people earning medals for bravery, merit, etc

 

[Kilted]

I don't think that the government would touch that with a ten foot pole. A certain parade comes to mind.

Has there been any consideration to standing up some more ‘ethnic’ (for lack of a better term) themed Army Res units? Might help with recruiting from specific cultures if they see some of their military traditions reflected.

Something like the 1st Brampton Sikh regiment, or the Vancouver Chinese rifles? Obviously like our Highland or Irish regiments (which at this point aren’t ethnically very Scottish or Irish) it is open to all, but just seeing certain ethnic martial heritage reflected in the military might encourage those groups participation.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I don't think that the government would touch that with a ten foot pole. A certain parade comes to mind.

This one? (You're welcome )

Military on defensive after soldiers wrongly given guns for Sikh parade

OTTAWA — The Canadian military is scrambling to explain why a group of soldiers was issued weapons to march in a Toronto parade on Sunday for Canada’s Sikh communit…

torontosun.com

 

[McG]

That is why ADM(IE) and DLR have initiated an Army Reserve Infrastructure review and are looking to begin constructing/purchasing new facilities as early as FY 26/27.

You probably mean DLI? Unless the “infrastructure” is to be a couple vans down by the river.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Why not just convert the Highland regiments to Sikh or what ever chosen demographic suits ?

All you would need to change the is some uniform bits and bobs.

 

[Remius]

Why not just convert the Highland regiments to Sikh or what ever chosen demographic suits ?

Haggis is why not.

All you would need to change the is some uniform bits and bobs.

Most of the people in that pic above are actually from highland units.

 

[markppcli]

Why not just convert the Highland regiments to Sikh or what ever chosen demographic suits ?

All you would need to change the is some uniform bits and bobs.

ARes regiments being huge proponents of changing with the times of course.

Realistically we raised Scottish / Highland regiments for a bunch of reasons but mostly because of community group engagements in the late 19th century, and then they tended to try and copy a British regiment. We also have tk consider that the Scottish, Irish, and English Canadians who pushed for and founded those regiments had a very different history in Canada. The Punjab Rifles of Canada probably evokes a more negactive colonial image that has a negative recruitment effect than a positive one. Similarly I don't think your average Chinese Canadian is particularly interested in a unit that implies a segregation. While they'd be open to all our history with East Indian and Chinese Canadians would gives those units some pretty unhealthy echoes of the past, a past that is probably more recent than we're really comfortable with. We didn't let either vote until 1947.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Is disappointing when I don't get as much of a reaction as I was expecting

 

[Remius]

Is disappointing when I don't get as much of a reaction as I was expecting

I tried

 

[Halifax Tar]

I tried

lol I got that. It was valiant lol.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Is disappointing when I don't get as much of a reaction as I was expecting

Sorry but I left my moral outrage in my other pair of pants.

 

[boredtoon]

You probably mean DLI? Unless the “infrastructure” is to be a couple vans down by the river.

Yea, that's my bad. I've talked to reps from both in the last months and mixed up my acronyms.

 

[boredtoon]

Yes but my point is if we wish to increase the size of the CAF it makes sense to try and attract people to join.

If part of attracting people is reflecting their cultural identity then isn’t that a easy price to pay?

Take the Sikhs for example, there is around 1 million in Canada. They have a martial tradition and it is a respected profession for them. Yet we don’t have a huge Sikh population in the CAF. Could a Sikh inspired regiment help change that?

Alternatively being told they have to join the insert ‘Highland Regiment’ if they wish to join the Reserves might turn them away. Much like how if they had a Highland regiment where I am it would attract me (as it reflects my heritage).

But how does this work in practice? There are a million Sikhs in Canada, so we stand up a Sikh regiment. Can only Sikhs be a part of this regiment? Does that mean we will stand up a Christian regiment, a Muslim regiment, a Jewish regiment, and an atheist regiment? If I join the Sikh regiment as a non-Sikh, do I have to wear Sikh articles of faith as part of my uniform? Does this mean I can't wear the symbols of my religion?

Also, if you want to target a specific demographic with a new regiment, is the demographic that is only 1 million spread across Canada really the one to target? Even if by some miracle, all 1 million lives in cities with an army reserve presence, that's 12,500 if spread evenly, so to fill out a 300 pers reserve unit, that's 2.4% of the city's Sikh population, a significantly bigger ratio than the 0.075% of Canadians who serve in the PRes.

The highland regiments continue to be viable because its cultural, not religious, and that culture is already integrated strongly into Canadian identity and culture. You can see the effect that Scottish immigration had on Canada very clearly in most cities, from the architecture, city and street names, every single police and fire department having bagpipes. Nobody joining the Middle of Nowhere Highlanders has to convert, they just have to lean into a part of Canadas history and culture that may have been more understated in their life.

 

[daftandbarmy]

ARes regiments being huge proponents of changing with the times of course.

Realistically we raised Scottish / Highland regiments for a bunch of reasons but mostly because of community group engagements in the late 19th century, and then they tended to try and copy a British regiment. We also have tk consider that the Scottish, Irish, and English Canadians who pushed for and founded those regiments had a very different history in Canada. The Punjab Rifles of Canada probably evokes a more negactive colonial image that has a negative recruitment effect than a positive one. Similarly I don't think your average Chinese Canadian is particularly interested in a unit that implies a segregation. While they'd be open to all our history with East Indian and Chinese Canadians would gives those units some pretty unhealthy echoes of the past, a past that is probably more recent than we're really comfortable with. We didn't let either vote until 1947.

IIRC that the reason there are so many Scottish units in Canada is that they largely paid for their own regiments back then, Scottish railway magnates and industrialists having lots of cash - and big egos and nostalgia.

The (gigantic) Seaforth Armoury in Vancouver, for example, was largely paid for by private subscription.

I'm betting that if the Sikhs forked out a few million to stand up their own regiment then Canada, in it's traditionally cheap fashion, would welcome them into the fold as per SOP.

And I, for one, would be amongst the first in line for the great, free, food

 

[Eaglelord17]

But how does this work in practice? There are a million Sikhs in Canada, so we stand up a Sikh regiment. Can only Sikhs be a part of this regiment? Does that mean we will stand up a Christian regiment, a Muslim regiment, a Jewish regiment, and an atheist regiment? If I join the Sikh regiment as a non-Sikh, do I have to wear Sikh articles of faith as part of my uniform? Does this mean I can't wear the symbols of my religion?

Also, if you want to target a specific demographic with a new regiment, is the demographic that is only 1 million spread across Canada really the one to target? Even if by some miracle, all 1 million lives in cities with an army reserve presence, that's 12,500 if spread evenly, so to fill out a 300 pers reserve unit, that's 2.4% of the city's Sikh population, a significantly bigger ratio than the 0.075% of Canadians who serve in the PRes.

The highland regiments continue to be viable because its cultural, not religious, and that culture is already integrated strongly into Canadian identity and culture. You can see the effect that Scottish immigration had on Canada very clearly in most cities, from the architecture, city and street names, every single police and fire department having bagpipes. Nobody joining the Middle of Nowhere Highlanders has to convert, they just have to lean into a part of Canadas history and culture that may have been more understated in their life.

Anyone can be part of any regiment. It would be making the DEUs and maybe a few unit traditions based on certain cultures. No one has to convert to anything.

It would be basing the demographics to choose such regiments off of based on the percentages in the area. For example Brampton is 25% Sikh. It has a population of 650k (as per 2021 census, Brampton itself is estimating almost 800k today) which would make the Sikh population in the range of 162.5k-200k. That is more than enough people to fill out a 300 pers reserve unit as the current average needed to hit 100k in the PRes is around 1 out of every 400 people in Canada. At the low end that would supply a 400 strong unit using the 400 to 1 ratio, high end 500 strong. You could potentially set up two regiments with that type of ratios. And this is from a culture which values military service, much like the Scots. I am sure there could be other cultural regiments set up the same way, and potentially work as a draw for some.

Alternatively we have the Lorne Scots in Brampton which does have a ton of history, however the Scottish population of Brampton is only 21k. Which population makes more sense to cater to?

Obviously it would be worthwhile to discuss it with such groups before setting up (as some maybe offended, etc.) but having discussions on trying to up the number of troops from different backgrounds is worthwhile. Canada isn't just the English, Scots, Irish, French, and Natives anymore. Just because it isn't our past doesn't mean they won't be part of our future. If giving a different style of DEU and some different traditions than our mainly British heritage norms helps recruit from these newer populations then so be it.

We are trying to do the largest expansion of the CAF since basically WWII. Those traditional recruiting bases haven't had the birth rate to really sustain such numbers and now the demographics have changed. Newer Canadians aren't buying into the CAF in the same numbers as the traditional population. If we want that growth, we need to figure out how to attract it.

Are highland regiments truly viable because of cultural heritage or is it because generally they are the only unit in a area? And I say this as a first generation Canadian whose family is from Scotland, I pipe and wore a kilt on my wedding. I love highland culture, it does attract me. Which is why I wonder if setting up regiments which will give a more familiar feel to other ethnic groups would have a similar draw, especially when the cultural difference can be much more extreme. There is comfort in numbers.

 

[markppcli]

IIRC that the reason there are so many Scottish units in Canada is that they largely paid for their own regiments back then, Scottish railway magnates and industrialists having lots of cash - and big egos and nostalgia.

The (gigantic) Seaforth Armoury in Vancouver, for example, was largely paid for by private subscription.

I'm betting that if the Sikhs forked out a few million to stand up their own regiment then Canada, in it's traditionally cheap fashion, would welcome them into the fold as per SOP.

And I, for one, would be amongst the first in line for the great, free, food

In a completely different vain the Army needs new reserve regiments like it needs a hole in the head. If we can create the 47th Sihk Support Regiment, RCEME id me more interested.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Anyone can be part of any regiment. It would be making the DEUs and maybe a few unit traditions based on certain cultures. No one has to convert to anything.

It would be basing the demographics to choose such regiments off of based on the percentages in the area. For example Brampton is 25% Sikh. It has a population of 650k (as per 2021 census, Brampton itself is estimating almost 800k today) which would make the Sikh population in the range of 162.5k-200k. That is more than enough people to fill out a 300 pers reserve unit as the current average needed to hit 100k in the PRes is around 1 out of every 400 people in Canada. At the low end that would supply a 400 strong unit using the 400 to 1 ratio, high end 500 strong. You could potentially set up two regiments with that type of ratios. And this is from a culture which values military service, much like the Scots. I am sure there could be other cultural regiments set up the same way, and potentially work as a draw for some.

Alternatively we have the Lorne Scots in Brampton which does have a ton of history, however the Scottish population of Brampton is only 21k. Which population makes more sense to cater to?

Obviously it would be worthwhile to discuss it with such groups before setting up (as some maybe offended, etc.) but having discussions on trying to up the number of troops from different backgrounds is worthwhile. Canada isn't just the English, Scots, Irish, French, and Natives anymore. Just because it isn't our past doesn't mean they won't be part of our future. If giving a different style of DEU and some different traditions than our mainly British heritage norms helps recruit from these newer populations then so be it.

We are trying to do the largest expansion of the CAF since basically WWII. Those traditional recruiting bases haven't had the birth rate to really sustain such numbers and now the demographics have changed. Newer Canadians aren't buying into the CAF in the same numbers as the traditional population. If we want that growth, we need to figure out how to attract it.

Are highland regiments truly viable because of cultural heritage or is it because generally they are the only unit in a area? And I say this as a first generation Canadian whose family is from Scotland, I pipe and wore a kilt on my wedding. I love highland culture, it does attract me. Which is why I wonder if setting up regiments which will give a more familiar feel to other ethnic groups would have a similar draw, especially when the cultural difference can be much more extreme. There is comfort in numbers.

Or we get rid of the current regimental construct. Issue 1 uniform and accouterments to all infantry regiments and just number them.

1st Regiment of Canadian Infantry
2nd Regiment of Canadian Infantry
3rd Regiment of Canadian Infantry
... and so on and so on.

And now you can even freely post soldiers between the regiments as holes need filling and career progression dictates.

 

[boredtoon]

Anyone can be part of any regiment. It would be making the DEUs and maybe a few unit traditions based on certain cultures. No one has to convert to anything.

It would be basing the demographics to choose such regiments off of based on the percentages in the area. For example Brampton is 25% Sikh. It has a population of 650k (as per 2021 census, Brampton itself is estimating almost 800k today) which would make the Sikh population in the range of 162.5k-200k. That is more than enough people to fill out a 300 pers reserve unit as the current average needed to hit 100k in the PRes is around 1 out of every 400 people in Canada. At the low end that would supply a 400 strong unit using the 400 to 1 ratio, high end 500 strong. You could potentially set up two regiments with that type of ratios. And this is from a culture which values military service, much like the Scots. I am sure there could be other cultural regiments set up the same way, and potentially work as a draw for some.

Are highland regiments truly viable because of cultural heritage or is it because generally they are the only unit in a area? And I say this as a first generation Canadian whose family is from Scotland, I pipe and wore a kilt on my wedding. I love highland culture, it does attract me. Which is why I wonder if setting up regiments which will give a more familiar feel to other ethnic groups would have a similar draw, especially when the cultural difference can be much more extreme. There is comfort in numbers.

But Scottish isn't a religion, Sikhism is. How do you have a religious regiment in a country that is supposed to be secular? How do you have a religious regiment that doesn't expect or only allow its members to be practitioners of that religion? Why are we targeting 1 million Canadian Sikhs with a bespoke religious regiment when there are 19 million Canadian Christians, or 1.8 million Canadian Muslims.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Yes but my point is if we wish to increase the size of the CAF it makes sense to try and attract people to join.

If part of attracting people is reflecting their cultural identity then isn’t that a easy price to pay?

Take the Sikhs for example, there is around 1 million in Canada. They have a martial tradition and it is a respected profession for them. Yet we don’t have a huge Sikh population in the CAF. Could a Sikh inspired regiment help change that?

Alternatively being told they have to join the insert ‘Highland Regiment’ if they wish to join the Reserves might turn them away. Much like how if they had a Highland regiment where I am it would attract me (as it reflects my heritage)..

Our view of the this "martial tradition and respected profession" mostly stems from their history in the Indian Army (and previously British Indian Army). Though the costumes that could be adopted could outshine the borrowed history and paraphernalia of our current regiments, would the other traditions that make those Indian regiments successful not also be required. There was a brief thread on these means not long ago that addressed one of those important traditions.

Thread 'IND courts uphold release of Christian officer who refused temple church parade'

Saturday at 05:46

India's version of secularism at play in the military ...

Why Supreme Court threw out Christian Army officer’s petition

Lt Samuel Kamalesan, a troop leader (officer commanding 3 tanks) in the Indian Army’s 3rd Cavalry Regiment was dismissed for refusing to participate in regimental religious rituals during weekly parades. He cited conflict with his Protestant Christian monotheistic beliefs.

www.indiatoday.in

India’s Supreme Court Upholds Christian Army Officer’s Dismissal - International Christian Concern

The officer was dismissed from the Indian Army without pension or gratuity for refusing to participate in specific religious rituals during regimental parades.

persecution.org

Indian Supreme Court upholds dismissal of Christian soldier who refused to enter temple

India’s Supreme Court upheld the dismissal of a Christian army officer who refused to enter the sanctuary of a regimental temple for worship...

clericalwhispers.blogspot.com

• The Bread Guy
• Replies: 1
• Forum: Foreign Militaries

 

[daftandbarmy]

But Scottish isn't a religion

How dare you, Sir!