Army Reserve Restructuring

[Kirkhill]

I am going to be a broken record, but we have firms making actual light AFV's selling thousands overseas, which we won't buy for our own military and would be easy to source parts for. Start buying a few hundred a year and start spreading them out to the units, replace them as they hit 10 years.

Senators and LAV IIs with and without RWS.

 

[CountDC]

I don't think we're talking about come kind of regulatory body accepting it as a professional certification. Rather were talking about something community colleges give out. I don't think itd be to hard to partner with XYZ College, and work out a deal where based on our training modules after 3 years an Fin or HRA gets a two year diploma granted to them. I may cost us a bit per member but would possibly be an enticing option for people who want to enter the CAF for job skills.

Can't agree with this. Fin and HRA in 3 years will not have the training or skills to be qualified for a diploma. 1 year training in military, 2 years working in the office doing military admin/fin. Do a PLAR and probably have about 4 courses needed at the college to complete.

I agree with whar you say, however I think we also suffer from a recruiting issue there. Anecdotal but I can't remember ever getting new clerks into the reserves. Shockingly joing the army to do paper work on the weekends isn't terribly appealing.

Reserves have always recruited to their base trades. Infantry recruit infantry, artillery recruit artillery. Brought this up at a unit in the 80's at a meeting and the answer was - why should we recruit clerks, that's the service bn job. Of course talking to the svc bn and they were not recruiting clerks either, they were busy with sup tech, veh tech, drivers, weapon techs.

Yes it was reversed after I handed over command as the person who implemented it as a Maj (after convincing the Bde Comd it was a great deal) became the CO of one of the Units that had to live with it. Surprise, she thought it was great when it wasn't her problem, but apparently it sucked when it was her problem.

Why is it I am not surprised.

Gawd forbid the paysheets disappear

There are organizations who have regularly managed (for decades) part-time/ casual workforces of thousands of people, on a daily basis, using swipe cards etc.

The fact that we can't make that work, this far into the Information Age, doesn't give me hope for our ability to exploit other emerging technology like drones and AI.

Swipe cards were a consideration in the early 90s but was killed because the troops were not trusted. The thought was one person could collect cards and swipe them all for a small cut of the pay. Imagine that thought about reserve units. Of course I didn't mention that there was nothing stopping them from doing the same thing with a pay sheet pre-signed and handed in when desired.

I am and always have been a believer that every unit should have some civilian clerical staff to keep things grounded. I hated it when they took 2 civilians from me when they redid the reserve establishment and thought I should be happy I was getting 2 class b positions. Every chance I got I asked when they were changing it back.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Reserves have always recruited to their base trades. Infantry recruit infantry, artillery recruit artillery. Brought this up at a unit in the 80's at a meeting and the answer was - why should we recruit clerks, that's the service bn job. Of course talking to the svc bn and they were not recruiting clerks either, they were busy with sup tech, veh tech, drivers, weapon techs.

Blend some units. One combat or combat support function sub-unit with one of (blended) CSS. Could probably be done within a paid ceiling of 150 (minimum for viability). Could probably offer 8 or more trades to prospective recruits.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think we often misunderstand what our HRAs and FSAs.

HRAs manage pers files and processes pay and admin. They do not do what Civ HR specialists do. These are Admin clerks.

FSAs manage prescribed budgets and track spending. They are not accountants or financial advisors. These are Financial clerks.

For some reason clerk has become a bad term it seems.

 

[dapaterson]

I think we often misunderstand what our HRAs and FSAs.

HRAs manage pers files and processes pay and admin. They do not do what Civ HR specialists do. These are Admin clerks.

FSAs manage prescribed budgets and track spending. They are not accountants or financial advisors. These are Financial clerks.

For some reason clerk has become a bad term it seems.

The people most adamant that HRAs and FSAs are not clerks are HRAs and FSAs.

 

[Remius]

The people most adamant that HRAs and FSAs are not clerks are HRAs and FSAs.

The same in the PS. Secretaries don’t exist. Admin assistants abound though. And don’t you dare buy them flowers on secretary day…

 

[dapaterson]

Until I began working in an office I never realized just how on point Murphy Brown was...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The same in the PS. Secretaries don’t exist. Admin assistants abound though. And don’t you dare buy them flowers on secretary day…

Because if you are in the CR trade, it was very difficult to climb the ladder. Based on the work they did, we managed to get all our assistants moved from CR to PM, which also opened a lot of career doors for them. On the flip side, Clerks in the PS are generally well paid compared to their civilian counterparts, although you never hear them say that.

 

[Furniture]

Because if you are in the CR trade, it was very difficult to climb the ladder. Based on the work they did, we managed to get all our assistants moved from CR to PM, which also opened a lot of career doors for them. On the flip side, Clerks in the PS are generally well paid compared to their civilian counterparts, although you never hear them say that.

In DND it seems most "clerks" are AS rather than CR, likely for the same reason.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I think we often misunderstand what our HRAs and FSAs.

HRAs manage pers files and processes pay and admin. They do not do what Civ HR specialists do. These are Admin clerks.

FSAs manage prescribed budgets and track spending. They are not accountants or financial advisors. These are Financial clerks.

For some reason clerk has become a bad term it seems.

Years and years ago, in the dark ages when there were Adm Clks (Pers Adm cap badge) and Fin Clks (Log cap badge) I spent several weeks at CFSAL doing Phase 1 of the Medical Documentation (Med Docs) Course. Strange as it may seem, at the time it was one of the most useful courses for me (then a Cpl Med A working as a coy clk in a Fd Amb); one of the skills I gained, I still use - touch typing - I suppose they would call it keyboarding today. Typing took up a significant portion of the day though we also covered all the POs of the Adm Clk TQ3, however we did not have to match their typing speed. At one time, if a Med Docs qualified Med A remustered to Adm Clk, TQ3 was written off if they passed the typing test. Phase 2 of the course was the medical specific portion done at CFMSS where we were joined by Adm Clks - there were three on my course, including an MWO who several years later (as a CFR Capt) was on the same MAO-HCA course after I was commissioned. I was never embarrassed to have been called a clerk, though Radar jokes were tiresome.

 

[Kirkhill]

Why would anybody ever want to be a clerk?
Why would anybody want to be in stores?
Why would anybody want to drive trucks?

And yet Canada is full of people who earn their living doing those jobs both full and part time.

Sometimes it is not about running around a muddy field with a bayonet.

Some people like those jobs.

 

[Furniture]

Why would anybody ever want to be a clerk?
Why would anybody want to be in stores?
Why would anybody want to drive trucks?

And yet Canada is full of people who earn their living doing those jobs both full and part time.

Sometimes it is not about running around a muddy field with a bayonet.

Some people like those jobs.

If we are being honest with ourselves though, even the people who like those jobs on average like them as a way to pay the bills, not as a passion or pastime.

How do you convince a truck drivers to drive army trucks the army way, on their time off from driving trucks in the real world?
How do you convince a clerks/secretaries to do clerk/secretary work the army way, in their time off from being a clerk/secretary in the real world?

Throw in the extra things CAF members are expected to do, like maintain fitness, weapons proficiency, CBRN, etc., and the task becomes even harder.

The CAF struggles to recruit enough HRAs and FSA for full-time employment, at a higher rate of pay than their civilian counterparts. Getting people to do it part-time is perhaps a bridge too far, and civilian staff might make a better option.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Why would anybody ever want to be a clerk?
Why would anybody want to be in stores?
Why would anybody want to drive trucks?

And yet Canada is full of people who earn their living doing those jobs both full and part time.

Sometimes it is not about running around a muddy field with a bayonet.

Some people like those jobs.

I guess it depends on who you talk too. If you look at my avatar you will see that is the old RCN Naval Storesman trade badge.

And to this day I sign my correspondence as C2ST (CPO2 Storesman).

I prefer our older terminology. But I have been accused of being nostalgic old Chief too

 

[Kirkhill]

If we are being honest with ourselves though, even the people who like those jobs on average like them as a way to pay the bills, not as a passion or pastime.

How do you convince a truck drivers to drive army trucks the army way, on their time off from driving trucks in the real world?
How do you convince a clerks/secretaries to do clerk/secretary work the army way, in their time off from being a clerk/secretary in the real world?

Throw in the extra things CAF members are expected to do, like maintain fitness, weapons proficiency, CBRN, etc., and the task becomes even harder.

The CAF struggles to recruit enough HRAs and FSA for full-time employment, at a higher rate of pay than their civilian counterparts. Getting people to do it part-time is perhaps a bridge too far, and civilian staff might make a better option.

I like your last line. Civilian staff might a better option.

I would sooner a well-functioning BOR and Regimental stores staffed by out of shape fifty year olds than one staffed by disgruntled rifles that would rather be in the field.

But that raises questions about are they DND employees? Or CAF employees? Are they identifiable? Do they wear insignia? Uniform? What colour? Can they defend their workstation? Do they need to be pistol or carbine qualified? Are they expected to deploy? To go overseas?

Could they be part of the 5 day a year 300,000?

Looking at things from this perspective finds us bumping up against the universality of service principle. Does everybody really need to meet the same physical standards? Or is there a home for an obese but highly competent individual that can handle a pistol and work under difficult conditions?

 

[Kirkhill]

I guess it depends on who you talk too. If you look at my avatar you will see that is the old RCN Naval Storesman trade badge.

And to this day I sign my correspondence as C2ST (CPO2 Storesman).

I prefer our older terminology. But I have been accused of being nostalgic old Chief too

Universality of Service
Infantry-centric
Regular, Full-time, Professionals.

That focus, to my eye, creates more problems than it solves.

Especially these days where much can be accomplished from a seat with a tablet. So much so that Ukrainians see fit to carry their chair with them to the field.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Universality of Service
Infantry-centric
Regular, Full-time, Professionals.

That focus, to my eye, creates more problems than it solves.

Especially these days where much can be accomplished from a seat with a tablet. So much so that Ukrainians see fit to carry their chair with them to the field.

View attachment 97627

I'm not sure I see the correlation to my statement ab out terminology.

But I have a turkey hunting vest that has a seat built into it like that. Its actually pretty common now.

 

[Kirkhill]

I'm not sure I see the correlation to my statement ab out terminology.

But I have a turkey hunting vest that has a seat built into it like that. Its actually pretty common now.

Put another way. "They also serve who only sit and wait."

 

[Furniture]

I like your last line. Civilian staff might a better option.

I would sooner a well-functioning BOR and Regimental stores staffed by out of shape fifty year olds than one staffed by disgruntled rifles that would rather be in the field.

But that raises questions about are they DND employees? Or CAF employees? Are they identifiable? Do they wear insignia? Uniform? What colour? Can they defend their workstation? Do they need to be pistol or carbine qualified? Are they expected to deploy? To go overseas?

Could they be part of the 5 day a year 300,000?

Looking at things from this perspective finds us bumping up against the universality of service principle. Does everebody really need to meet the same physical standards? Or is there a home for an obese but highly competent individual that can handle a pistol and work under difficult conditions?

I agree 100% with the bolded part. Some tasks don't need to be done by uniformed pers, particularly in small sections where there is little to no room for career development/advancement. A part-time civilian position with reasonable pay could likely attract someone looking to make a few extra dollars, who isn't interested in rucking and shooting guns.

UoS is useful and necessary for a volunteer military that mostly works/trains for expeditionary ops. If/when Canada is facing imminent invasion, then we can look at handing rifles to every person willing to shoot, regardless of their fitness/physical capability. Until then we need to pick and choose the ones capable of working/fighting in harsh environments.

When a member steps onto a ship as a crew member, it doesn't matter what their trade is, they are expected to be able to don PPE and fight a fire, help build shoring, or move casualties around the ship. Jim might be the best mechanic to ever turn a wrench, but if he can't do those other tasks, there is no place for him in a warship. Nobody wants a "rider" on the ship when things are going wrong.

When I was deployed with D Bty to Kandahar in 2007, I was not just expected to launch weather balloons, I was expected to be able to help dig mortar pits/my own shelter, as well as move ammo and other stores just like the gunners. Just like with the navy, there was no room for a "rider" who was a burden apart from doing one thing well.

 

[Kirkhill]

I agree 100% with the bolded part. Some tasks don't need to be done by uniformed pers, particularly in small sections where there is little to no room for career development/advancement. A part-time civilian position with reasonable pay could likely attract someone looking to make a few extra dollars, who isn't interested in rucking and shooting guns.

UoS is useful and necessary for a volunteer military that mostly works/trains for expeditionary ops. If/when Canada is facing imminent invasion, then we can look at handing rifles to every person willing to shoot, regardless of their fitness/physical capability. Until then we need to pick and choose the ones capable of working/fighting in harsh environments.

When a member steps onto a ship as a crew member, it doesn't matter what their trade is, they are expected to be able to don PPE and fight a fire, help build shoring, or move casualties around the ship. Jim might be the best mechanic to ever turn a wrench, but if he can't do those other tasks, there is no place for him in a warship. Nobody wants a "rider" on the ship when things are going wrong.

When I was deployed with D Bty to Kandahar in 2007, I was not just expected to launch weather balloons, I was expected to be able to help dig mortar pits/my own shelter, as well as move ammo and other stores just like the gunners. Just like with the navy, there was no room for a "rider" who was a burden apart from doing one thing well.

Not to takeaway from our headline agreement, I want to clarify my notion of arming those in the rear.

If we develop an effective international force that is capable of influencing events (a fully staffed and equipped division that can be deployed and recovered in a timely manner) then our enemy's might be inclined to hinder its operations. And one way of hindering it would be to engage its rear areas if they are unprotected. To that end I would see those civilian positions as being at risk from hybrid forces, little green men. I think an appropriate response to such a hybrid threat would be our own hybrid force. Militarized civilian volunteers.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I agree 100% with the bolded part. Some tasks don't need to be done by uniformed pers, particularly in small sections where there is little to no room for career development/advancement. A part-time civilian position with reasonable pay could likely attract someone looking to make a few extra dollars, who isn't interested in rucking and shooting guns.

For some reason, all the company HQs I deployed with were staffed with clerks who were also excellent soldiers.

The OC's Rover Group (a driver/body guard team comprised largely of clerks) had the highest scores on some of our shooting competitions.